Basic (very basic) HD training questions

[psychophd]

Hi all,

So here's the deal: I've been out of shooting for about 5+ years, and just got into it again. I picked up a new pistol (H&K P30), and have taken it to the range a few times, and want to get better. As a baseline, I'm now at the point that I can consistently hit the 8-10 ring at ~25 feet (not bragging - if anything I'm a bit embarrassed), slow fire. I also know my handguns well enough that I don't need a basic intro course.

Goals:
1. Shoot more accurately (grip/stance/etc)
2. Be able to use my weapon in HD situations (decision making/shooting from cover/etc)

Limitations:
1. Local indoor ranges for now (I'm in Orange County, and with life right now I can't make it to outdoor ranges, Nevada, or other places for training).
2. Limited hours. E.g., Assume I can do ~5 hours of instruction + own range time, but may not be able to attend a weekly course from 7-9pm for 6 weeks or similar.

Questions:
1. How good are the folk at the local ranges who are instructors? Does this vary greatly at different ranges? I don't need a SWAT/SEAL team member at this stage (unless I'm wrong?), I'm thinking I need someone who can see what I'm doing wrong in basic shooting and correct it, and introduce some new skills for home defense shooting.
2. It is rude/unacceptable to hire someone who is not associated with the range and bring them to instruct me? If not, how do I get recommendations for someone to come with me?
3. What's the cost? I've been quoted ~$100/hr for personalized training from ranges.
4. How many hours of instruction do I need to be competent at HD shooting?

Ultimately I'd like to do the same for shotgun & rifle, but thought I'd start with handguns due to time factor and availability of range time.

Thanks, and apologies for the newbie questions. I did a quick search but all the other threads seem to deal with issues that are more advanced than mine. Hopefully I'll get there!

[HCz]

It is hard to find someone to teach you the skills in an indoor range. They are quite restricted on what they can do. So the best bet is to go to an outdoor range. I know you said you want to do it indoors, but for what you want to learn, you have to go to an outdoor range.

For the things you want to learn, there are many companies here in SoCal that teaches it.

Within your criteria(minus the indoor range one), I'd say Stan's classes would be the best fit. His website is www.stcrispian.com and he also has a thread here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=467279http://www.allsafedefense.com). They have Intermediate handgun course. His cost is $100 and he probably will go to Burro Canyon, which is north of Azusa, further away from OC. But that shouldn't be a big problem.

I noticed that you wanted something within 5 hour, so Stan's class would be the one that matches your criteria better. However, my recommendation is to spare 1 day for classes like these. You have to learn a few things and it does take time to go through the material.

Once you learn some skills, then you can work on them and take a few more classes. I know it doesn't sound that enticing, but taking a class or two is not going to help you much. You have to practice them and sometimes you have to go a few times to get it right.

What classes mainly do for you is to show you what you need to know and how to do it. You have to practice them later to absorb the material. And even after that you have to practice. Shooting skills are perishable so you have to tune them up.

[mixicus]

You don't need to go to NV or AZ to get high quality instruction. There are top notch groups in SoCal and many of the big names bring their traveling road shows through here every year. The ranges at Raahauges (Corona) and Prado (Chino) are just over the hills from OC. Depending on where you live (i.e. north county), they maybe closer than 3 of the 4 indoor ranges in the county. The flexibility those ranges provide for instruction is well beyond what a 3' wide lane at an indoor can accommodate in the realm of defensive shooting. Consider at least a full day for your first 'defensive' class. It will help give you a solid foundation to build upon.

Sounds like you are looking for a basic defensive handgun class. Take a look at Falcon Operations Group (Pistol Manipulation), Firearms Training Associates (General Handgun), St. Crispin Academy (Pistol 101) to start with. Some are half day (~$75) while others a full day (~$150). All these groups offer intermediate and advanced courses as well as defensive/tactical rifle and shotgun classes. All offer regular 'alumni days', where for a modest fee you can come out and shoot with the instructor and work on specific skills.

As for the local instructors, every one is different. If they are good instructors, it’s more of how a person has developed as an instructor, what the class is and who their audience is as opposed to where they come from (i.e. LEO or military or other). I’ve seen good instructors from all backgrounds teach excellent basic shooting and defensive pistol classes. I’ve also seen the other side of the coin.

If you are looking for specific ‘tactics’ (and rules of engagement), the backgrounds become a more important. There are strengths to each background. Train with all of them! An LEO with a patrol background is probably not going to have the experience to teach a 6-8 man room clearing (SWAT) but will likely have done thousands of 1-3 man house/yard searches (a bit more in alignment with an armed civilian’s needs). A straight up IDPA or USPSA based instructor will be able to greatly enhance your ability to run a gun but may not have the best 'non-match' tactics. Some of the best carbine CQB-type instruction I have had comes from military or contractors. But, though fun on the range, ‘break contact’ tactics (i.e. Aussie peel, dynamic movement with fire,…) aren’t too applicable CONUS as a solo or even if your team isn’t on the same page.

For staying sharp, you may consider participating in the USPSA or IDPA matches at either (or both) Raahauges and Prado on the weekends. Great people and oh so much fun!

[Bobby Hated]

just take a few hours on a saturday morning, go to prado or norco and shoot a IPSC or IDPA match once a week. people there will correct you on your technique as you progress. find regular high performing shooters and ask them questions.

cheaper, less time spent, and more efficient practicing of skills you will use in a real gun fight.

google: prado runing gun & norco running gun & prado idpa

[Stan08]

IM sent

[psychophd]

Thanks guys for the responses so far.

I did have a question again about indoor ranges - is it reasonable to expect a decent level of instruction from those who run training programs there, and is $100/hr the going rate? Also, is it 'wrong' to bring in an outside instructor?

I will check out some local outdoor ranges, but right now it's hard to get away with other things on the plate.

[Stan08]

Is it reasonable to expect a decent level of instruction from those who run training programs there?

That depends on the instructor, ask to see his resume. You are hiring him to do a job; instruct you.

Is $100/hr the going rate?

That's absurdly expensive. I only charge $75 for a four session. If you take one of my weekday classes you may be one of a few students.


Is it 'wrong' to bring in an outside instructor?

Some will not allow a formal outside instructor teach a class. Others may allow you, you just have to ask.

Stan

[DVSmith]

Disclaimer: I work with Greg. Still, check out his courses for yourself.

http://www.firearmstraining.com/

[NokSuCow]

I wonder, are there any certified instructors who are looking for private property to LEGALLY shoot on with me in return for some friendly advice while shooting? ***

[psychophd]

Thanks for the additional info - it helps a lot. I might start saving my pennies, try to set aside some time and hit an outdoor range.