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Suarez Close Range Gunfighting AAR

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  • jb7706
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2008
    • 1570

    Suarez Close Range Gunfighting AAR

    Just finished up 2 days of top notch training with Uli Gebhard at Sac Valley.

    Day 1:

    The class consisted of 8 students. None were beginners and had good gun handling skills. The class was given at Sac Valley. Uli didn't care for my SERPA and cautioned me to watch my finger placement on the draw. I was good with trigger discipline so I shot the class with it. He didn't have an attitude about it at all, but he has had experience with other shooters in the past that could not handle that holster.

    The course is designed to build one skill on another. We started with a safety briefing. Basic safety skills and brushing up on gun handling followed. We moved to drawing from the holster to both get us tuned up and to let Uli assess our basic skill levels. The rest of the day was spent on moving explosively off the lane of attack while implementing various skills.

    Each new skill was first discussed, then demonstrated, then practiced dry before moving on to live fire. The discussions were very informative and Uli injected bits of material from other courses and personal experience. It both kept things interesting and showed us how the skill we were learning tied into other areas like knife fighting, non-permissive environments and real life situations. The bite sized approach to adding skills while building on the previously learned one made it very easy to absorb and perform new material. Very efficient and natural. All skills focused on "cave man simple" techniques that even klutzes like me could do.

    By the end of day 1 we were shooting on the move while evading our attacker. We also coved gun retention techniques, fighting from cover garments, flashlight work, failure drills and proactive measures aka tac reloads on the move. The failure drills were fun and frustrating at the same time. Students swapped magazines and replaced good ammo with empty cases to cause mis-feeds and failure to fire situations. After several failures in a row we became good at clearing stoppages very quickly.

    I came home starving and tired. I slept very well and woke up sore from the dozens of mini sprints we did on day 1.

    Day 2:

    It started with a safety briefing and a refresh of the prior days skills. We spent a good deal more time on point shooting skill development and moved into multi-threat engagements. We did a drill performed at a dead run while engaging threats that was a real blast. The class covered transitioning the gun from one hand to the other and shooting with either or both hands. We went over shooting from cover. We also shot from inside a shirt (provided to us from a local dollar store) to simulate getting hung up in clothing after the draw. That is a situation that guns tend to malfunction very quickly under and fighting thorough it is a kick in the pants. The day ended with a full contact exercise that was quite intense, I had never shot a target while "grappling" with it until today.

    All in all I learned a tremendous amount. The quantity and quality of the training was exceptional. I hope to be able to take more classes from Uli in the future, he has great skill and a very easy manner about him. I highly recommended that you take advantage of this course if you are a defensive pistol shooter, CCW holder, or just keep a handgun on your nightstand. If Gabe ever crosses this thread know that he is representing your school and name very well.

    Total round count for me was around 1200 rounds for the two days. Hands, feet, knees and back are all reminding me I'm not 22 anymore, but dang it was fun!
    Last edited by jb7706; 04-28-2011, 6:38 PM.
  • #2
    nrvnqsrxk
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2009
    • 983

    good review

    Comment

    • #3
      Uriah02
      Veteran Member
      • Sep 2009
      • 3149

      What do you mean about his reservations against the SERPA? I kinda think SERPAs encourage proper trigger discipline...
      sigpic
      OIF 07-09 Veteran
      NRA Endowment Member, CRPA Life Member

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      • #4
        llamatrnr
        Veteran Member
        • Oct 2010
        • 4194

        Very nice review; especially appreciate the spelling and punctuation!

        Comment

        • #5
          curvejunkie
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 816

          How did you find out about the class? Excellent review btw, very well done.
          Robert
          Elite Arms and Supply
          1148 S. Main Street, Manteca, CA 95337
          209-823-4400


          Webstore http://store.elitearmsandsupply.com/
          www.facebook.com/elitearmsandsupply

          Our new web store is up and running!

          Sig Sauer, Glock, Vortex, Kimber, Beretta, Benelli and Wilson Combat Dealers.

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          • #6
            LMT4ME
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2011
            • 2170

            Originally posted by Uriah02
            What do you mean about his reservations against the SERPA? I kinda think SERPAs encourage proper trigger discipline...
            More and more classes are forbidding the SERPA. The design encourages your trigger finger to tap the holster in the exact position the trigger is located. I understand several people shot themselves or discharged their weapon while drawing. I owned one for a while and can see how its design could lead to unintended discharges.

            Comment

            • #7
              jb7706
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2008
              • 1570

              Originally posted by Uriah02
              What do you mean about his reservations against the SERPA? I kinda think SERPAs encourage proper trigger discipline...
              Some students have not kept their finger straight, rather they let it drag to the rear and as the gun clears the holster a bang happens. I can understand how it could happen. I have seen guys ND out of holsters with no retention at all too. Poor trigger discipline is poor discipline, regardless of the holster.

              Part of me thinks that it's easier to blame the holster, I'm not sure there has ever been any serious study to determine if the SERPA design is any more prone to ND than any other. It works for me, that's all I know.

              Comment

              • #8
                jb7706
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2008
                • 1570

                Originally posted by curvejunkie
                How did you find out about the class? Excellent review btw, very well done.
                Thanks. I found out about it on the Sac Valley calendar.

                Comment

                • #9
                  G-Solutions
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 672

                  jb7706: thank you for the detailed AAR and your kind words. I enjoyed teaching this class and all I can say is that each and every student had a huge part in making these two days the experience you described.

                  Key points from my perspective were that all came well prepared, all had their head fully in the game, especially in regards to safety, but also in taking the material that Mark and I demonstrated and making it your own. Combine a group of students with this mindset with the right range and things get even better. This being the long way of telling you that you have a great facility - by far the range with the best infrastructure that I have taught on.

                  There is one other point where I have to give credit to one of the members of your range: Without Mark, this class as well as the rifle class and the knife class on the next three days would not have come to pass. He did an outstanding job making sure that everything would run smoothly. In that, he went above and beyond the course and also helped to make sure that my family was taken care of.

                  It was an exceptional week for me: Three classes with very positive teaching experiences and in addition a family trip that we will talk about for quite awhile.

                  Thank you for the hospitality at Sacramento Valley Shooting Center - I have a hunch that I will be back.
                  Upcoming Classes:
                  Martial Blade Concepts Seminar with Michael Janich
                  March 16-17, 2024 - Anaheim, CA
                  www.gebhardsolutions.com

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    ZombieTactics
                    Veteran Member
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 3691

                    Originally posted by jb7706
                    Some students have not kept their finger straight, rather they let it drag to the rear and as the gun clears the holster a bang happens. ...
                    Generally I think it's a training failure on the part of the student AND instructor. Nobody should be drawing with a curved finger ... flat and properly indexed should be drilled into people's heads.

                    Originally posted by jb7706
                    I have seen guys ND out of holsters with no retention at all too. Poor trigger discipline is poor discipline, regardless of the holster.
                    Exactly. Proper discipline prevents almost any possibility of this happening. It's almost as important as the "4 rules", IMHO. People have been allowed to be too sloppy for too long.

                    Originally posted by jb7706
                    Part of me thinks that it's easier to blame the holster, I'm not sure there has ever been any serious study to determine if the SERPA design is any more prone to ND than any other. It works for me, that's all I know.
                    I think you are onto something here. There is a strong "novelty factor" and "last proximate cause" psychology going on here.

                    It should also be noted that these NDs only happen with guns possessing no external/secondary safeties or in cases where the safety has been disengaged before the draw. I don't blame Glocks and XDs for these NDs ... trigger discipline is the problem. I don't blame the 1911 when the idiot disengages the safety "so he can be faster" either.
                    |
                    sigpic
                    I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

                    Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      G-Solutions
                      Senior Member
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 672

                      Here's my personal experience with the SERPA system - ND's are one thing, instructors I know well have had them happen in their courses. I know these SI-Instructors well enough that I trust them with my life. This just as a side note.

                      My best friend used his SERPA holster for an HK USP compact during a knife defense seminar back in 2007. He had practiced A LOT with the holster, his presentations from were swift and flawless.
                      Then we got into the force a force seminar with him using this holster. A 220 lb-MMA fighter charging at you with a (training) knife has a tendency to throw fine-motor skills out of the window.
                      He missed the release tab, and the fouled up draw fouled up his entire response in short, he got plowed over. This happened while both of us were attending the Die Less Often II seminar with Gabe Suarez and Marc Denny. Seeing this makes me doubt the value of this holster in a high-stress environment.

                      I saw jb7709's presentation from the holster and he was so adept with this holster that I felt comfortable letting him use it despite the combination of Glock/SERPA.

                      I appreciate the feedback regarding the course. It was a very positive experience for me to teach. A large portion of credit for this outcome goes back to the students. Their focus on safety determines how far we can push the boundaries. And with this group, I would have no problems taking things up to the next level, where we increase the speed of the takeoff and change the evasive movement to a path that forces the attacker to put even more effort into tracking...

                      If you would like to discuss why Suarez International is not too fond of the SERPA holster, I'll gladly discuss that in another thread.

                      Regards,

                      Uli Gebhard
                      Upcoming Classes:
                      Martial Blade Concepts Seminar with Michael Janich
                      March 16-17, 2024 - Anaheim, CA
                      www.gebhardsolutions.com

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        jb7706
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 1570

                        Originally posted by G-Solutions
                        If you would like to discuss why Suarez International is not too fond of the SERPA holster, I'll gladly discuss that in another thread.

                        Regards,

                        Uli Gebhard
                        OK, I opened another thread on that specific topic in this same forum.

                        Thanks for the kind words about our range. I'm quite proud of it as are our members. We are also very fortunate to have great staff working with us. I'm pleased you had a good experience and that your family enjoyed the trip up with you. I definitely look forward to seeing you again in the future.

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