At Front Sight this week..

[MP301]

Im attending the 4 day tactical shotgun class this week Mon-Thur. If anyone else is going to be there, introduce yourself! On day one Ill be wearing a calguns t-shirt and hat.

Hope to see you there!

[c.j.]

Darn, going out my first time in two weeks, but I'd already sent you a PM a few days back. Have a great time, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the recent updates since you've been before.

[MP301]

Last time I was there was December for an advanced tactical. They change up those classes every time I go. I wascurious to changes that have been made to the four day DFG so I'll look into it while im there. This is my first time for the four day Shotgun so it should be interesting.

[powaybob]

MP301,

Post a course summary when you are done. This is a course I want to take soon.

[MP301]

MP301,

Post a course summary when you are done. This is a course I want to take soon.

Ok, I now have a few minutes to give a bit of info on my 4 Day SG course.

I thought It would be easier then it was, but quickly remembered that owning a shotgun for decades does not equate to knowing WTF I am dong with it!

The first tips I have are:

DO NOT put a side saddle shell carrier on a semi auto shotgun. If you do, find the time to test the shotgun extensively with shot, buck and slugs prior to attending your class. (I didnt).

If you do not test it, ( I didnt have/make time), at least be prepared to remove your side saddle. This means that you need to remember to take the original parts with you (I didnt).

If you forgot to bring the original parts, (like me), and your sotgun does not function as intended, you will need to transition to your back up shotgun or rent one from FS.

More importantly, make sure your back up gun functions and is configured similarly to your primary. This means that if your primary is a mossberg, make sure your back up is as well. If your primary has a standard stock, make sure you back doesnt have a pistol grip, etc. (mine were not similar).

Also, test the accuracy of your slugs if possible. DO NOT use the "Strike" slugs that were on the net so cheap. There is a reason they are so cheap. At 50 yards, you would be lucky to hit a billboard. Many students had these (including me). The instructor tols us that we were in an excersise in futility if we used these and he was right! They sucked.

So, I didnt do as well as I would have liked. My new (never fired) mossberg 930 didnt like the side saddle and I didnt have what I needed to remove it. I fiddled with it and it worked part of the time, but I ended up going back and forth to my back up SG.

The problem with my back up was that it was a pistol grip remington 870 and my primary was a standard stock mossberg 930. I kept switching to the 870 when the 930 would fail and and then back again. I had to keep relearning everything over again. Mistake.

The slide release and the safety are located differently between the Mossberg and the Remington so when you switch between them, your muscle memory with what you have done so far goes out the window.

Also, you understand real quick how bad the ergonomics are on some pistol grip set ups when you actually train hard. I had a speedfeed stock with integrated permanent stock and pistol grip that I thought was the best of both worlds. NOT!

Since returning on friday night, I couldnt remove that speedfeed set up fast enough. And I will never put a pistol grip on a shotgun again, no matter how comfortable I think it is at the time.

Unlike the rifle class with my AR, the shooting and malfunction drills you need to do with the SG are not as pistol grip friendly due to where things are located on a SG.

A special note to mossberg pump owners. I noticed that the guys in the class that had mossbergs with pistol grips were at a disadvantage due to the slide release location. Even the instructors who teach these shotgun classes regulary commented that it is not a good idea to do this if your actually going to train and use your SG.

As usual, I had a great time and learned a lot. I didnt know what I didnt know! The class was well thought out and the instructors were great. My SG skillls imporoved 60-70%.

[nick]

Which reminds me, I got my membership package on Thursday, thank you. Picking the class for May, before I go on vacation

[tools2teach]

Going for the 2 day May 13th tactical handgun class. Anyone here taking this class? What should expect? I've taken other tactical classes in the past, I feel I won't get much from this class. Thoughts?

I have all requirements that are needed for the class, but what tips can you provide aside from a backup gun, the holster issue, etc?

[MP301]

First tip.

Extend it to the four day class. They spend a lot of time on safety related stuff and lectures at the begining which are important and great stuff.
But by the 3rd day your getting in your groove. Thats when it starts getting fun.

Second tip.

Lose the attitude. You get what you put into it. If you feel you wont get much out of it, dont go. If your going to have that attitude, it might be a self fulfilling phophecy. If you just compare what your being taught elsewhere and fixate on what they do differently in a negative way, your wasting everyones time. It annoys the **** outta the rest of us that are there to learn. Dont be that guy.

ANY training from ANY legitimate source is a good thing. Its not all the same. Different schools have different philosphies and like most things, there is not necessarily a right and wrong. Just different.

You will hear the internet warriors here say blah blah blah weaver stance bad blah blahblah. Whatever. It works for some and not for others. FS instructors will have you try it their way first, but if you want to do it your way and there are no safety issues, no problem.

Ive been carrying a gun for the last 25 years, have been to a couple of schools for training, graduated a Police academy and was top gun in my class, etc. After attending my first 4 day DFG at FS, my accuracy, speed and general gun handling skills increased by at least 50% and I was no slouch before I went. I did have a bit of a time ditching some bad habits I learned in the Academy at first though...

Anyway, have fun and drink water every time you return froim the firingline regardless of the temperature. You will dehydrate if you dont. Lip balm is also a must.

Use a Kydex holster that does not have a button release (or disable the release). They dont allow them antyore because of NDs at FS and other schools. This is also why I prefer singl/double autos. All of the NDs were with 1911s, XDs and Glocks. People putting pressure on the buttons and transfering that pressure to the triggers - Newbies trying to go to fast I reckon.

Have something with a little weight to it for a conceallment garment. You can add some fishing sinkers to the leading edge of a light garment if you have to. I use a CCW vest so its not bad when the weather is hot.

Get a good nights sleep every night. Loud noises and articulate behavior whilst suffering a hangover is not good!

Electronic ear protection is a must. It looks like it will be a requirement some time this month anyway and will be available for rent if you dont have your own I think. Once you get some, you will never understand how you lived without it. Its great and you can hear the instructors that way.

Take a back up gun that functions the same as your primary. If not, all that muscle memory you developed to that point goes out the window. Having the same caliber in your back up is wise as well.

Any questions, PM me if you like.

Oh yeah, most importantly...Have fun!

[MP301]

First tip.

Extend it to the four day class. They spend a lot of time on safety related stuff and lectures at the begining which are important and great stuff.
But by the 3rd day your getting in your groove. Thats when it starts getting fun.

Second tip.

Lose the attitude. You get what you put into it. If you feel you wont get much out of it, dont go. If your going to have that attitude, it might be a self fulfilling phophecy. If you just compare what your being taught elsewhere and fixate on what they do differently in a negative way, your wasting everyones time. It annoys the **** outta the rest of us that are there to learn. Dont be that guy.

ANY training from ANY legitimate source is a good thing. Its not all the same. Different schools have different philosphies and like most things, there is not necessarily a right and wrong. Just different.

You will hear the internet warriors here say blah blah blah weaver stance bad blah blahblah. Whatever. It works for some and not for others. FS instructors will have you try it their way first, but if you want to do it your way and there are no safety issues, no problem.

Ive been carrying a gun for the last 25 years, have been to a couple of schools for training, graduated a Police academy and was top gun in my class, etc. After attending my first 4 day DFG at FS, my accuracy, speed and general gun handling skills increased by at least 50% and I was no slouch before I went. I did have a bit of a time ditching some bad habits I learned in the Academy at first though...

Anyway, have fun and drink water every time you return froim the firingline regardless of the temperature. You will dehydrate if you dont. Lip balm is also a must.

Use a Kydex holster that does not have a button release (or disable the release). They dont allow them antyore because of NDs at FS and other schools. This is also why I prefer singl/double autos. All of the NDs were with 1911s, XDs and Glocks. People putting pressure on the buttons and transfering that pressure to the triggers - Newbies trying to go to fast I reckon.

Have something with a little weight to it for a conceallment garment. You can add some fishing sinkers to the leading edge of a light garment if you have to. I use a CCW vest so its not bad when the weather is hot.

Get a good nights sleep every night. Loud noises and articulate behavior whilst suffering a hangover is not good!

Electronic ear protection is a must. It looks like it will be a requirement some time this month anyway and will be available for rent if you dont have your own I think. Once you get some, you will never understand how you lived without it. Its great and you can hear the instructors that way.

Take a back up gun that functions the same as your primary. If not, all that muscle memory you developed to that point goes out the window. Having the same caliber in your back up is wise as well.

Any questions, PM me if you like.

Oh yeah, most importantly...Have fun!

ETA: There was one guy with a Saiga 12. Im thinking he wished he had brought something else. He had a hard time with many of the drills and the Saigas are not...ahem...the most reliable SGs around.

If you insist on using a Saiga, you shouldnt bring a 10 rd mag. Too much trouble. Plus, the malfunction drills will take much longer. Lastly, dont forget to make your system adjustment so it will cycle when you shoot birdshot.

[GW]

I'm betting you cinched down that sidesaddle a little too much. If it's too tight it will mess with your cycling, pump or auto
I went thru the 4-day way back when with sidesaddles on my M-1 S90 and my 590 and had 0 problems. I discovered the too tight issue early on. Your report is getting me jazzed up to take the shotgun class maybe sooner than October
Thanks for the review, I'm glad you had a good, instructive time!

[Kodemonkey]

This is probably the next class I want to take. I have a 930 as well, and I heard that some autoloaders don't like a side saddle (actually I heard that at one of the lunch meetings at Front Sight). Keep giving us reports, I am really interested in how they run it. Thanks!

When I took the 4 day defensive handgun class, they could tell my grip was different and they very quickly said that I can do what is comfortable but give it a try. It took almost 2 full days to change my grip consistently, but you know what? The grip they taught me made me more accurate. They are open to other stances and styles, but give what they say a try first - you just might learn something.

Another thing, I remember the handgun course moving way fast. I got the impression that this was to kind of ego check the hot shots. They weren't pushy, but they lost some people with all the stuff they were throwing at us. That's when the instructors would swoop in and I heard; "don't worry about x or y, let's just build the foundation and once you are comfortable you can worry about after action drills, etc." I am wondering if that is what the shotgun course feels like.

[MP301]

I'm betting you cinched down that sidesaddle a little too much. If it's too tight it will mess with your cycling, pump or auto
I went thru the 4-day way back when with sidesaddles on my M-1 S90 and my 590 and had 0 problems. I discovered the too tight issue early on. Your report is getting me jazzed up to take the shotgun class maybe sooner than October
Thanks for the review, I'm glad you had a good, instructive time!

Actually, the buddy who went with me is an FFL and real bonefide gunsmith. He worked on it and made adjustments. We had it working for a while, but then that night he went through it again (he shouldnt have) and the next day it was a no go. He also had his 930 with a sidesaddle and his worked perfectly. Just the luck of the draw I guess. He couldnt remove the side saddle on mine because the original pins were back in his shop.

This is probably the next class I want to take. I have a 930 as well, and I heard that some autoloaders don't like a side saddle (actually I heard that at one of the lunch meetings at Front Sight). Keep giving us reports, I am really interested in how they run it. Thanks!

When I took the 4 day defensive handgun class, they could tell my grip was different and they very quickly said that I can do what is comfortable but give it a try. It took almost 2 full days to change my grip consistently, but you know what? The grip they taught me made me more accurate. They are open to other stances and styles, but give what they say a try first - you just might learn something.

Another thing, I remember the handgun course moving way fast. I got the impression that this was to kind of ego check the hot shots. They weren't pushy, but they lost some people with all the stuff they were throwing at us. That's when the instructors would swoop in and I heard; "don't worry about x or y, let's just build the foundation and once you are comfortable you can worry about after action drills, etc." I am wondering if that is what the shotgun course feels like.

Its funny you should mention the grip. My buddy (the same guy who went with me last year for his first 4 day DFG experienced the same exact thing. He has many pistol shooting awards and is a crack shot, but they told him to try it thier way and see how it worked.

On his wall in his are two targets. The first is a group you could cover with a silver dollar that he shot his way. The other is a group you could cover with a qurter that he show their way.

As far as the class moving to fast. As you start getting loaded up with information it it seems that way for a bit. The reality is it moves at an exact pace, times and standard on all ranges.

The rifle and shotgun classes seem a bit more relaxed probably because there are less students, but it still functions the same in all of the standard classes. The Advanced tactical and tactical scenarios operate differently after they refresh the basics.

I recommend you take your 930 out with about 50 shot, 25 buck and 25 slugs and test it. I also recommend taking a back up SG as well. If you can get your hands on another 930, at least make sure you take a 590A1 as the safety is in the same place. I, as well as FS SG instructors, strongly recommend against a pistol grip on a mossberg because of where the slide release is located.

[tools2teach]

I just got back today from my 2 day defense handgun class. It was as good if not better then what I had expected. The instructors were great and non militant in there teaching styles.

There was so much to learn in such a short period of time, that I think the 4 day class would have been better and engraved muscle memory. However, I would've had hard time taking the 4 day class, I was mentally and physically exhausted at the end of the 2nd day. I could only take these classes in small doses.

I met great people from all walks of life from kids, military, law enforcement officers, and older women and men that were just looking have fun. Ohhh and eye candy.

They placed great emphasis doing chamber checks on every tactical step to the point where it was getting very annoying. No one in the real world would do this in a bad situation, but I understand why they did it and it's habit now that will stay with me.

I will defiantly go again and thanks for the great tips mp301

[Tripper]

for handguns, after the 4 DHG, what is the next course.
and, for SG, would a 590 with 500 backup be OK, you think?
I want to do the SG course, but I also want to challenge myself on another 4DHG left handed only. Alternatively, I was thinking a 2D advanced handgun of whatever sort, and a 2day SG if it were possible

decisions...decisions...

[tacticalcity]

It has been a little over a year since my last visit. I always have an excellent time and learn a great deal. Enjoy yourself. If you have time after your class to visit Las Vegas, I recommend the Red Square restaurant at the Mandalay Bay. The Crab Chunk past and their Steaks are amazing. So are their Key Lime Pie Martini's...chick drink I know...but they are so good I get monthly cravings.