FrontSight experience

[blackbox]

So, I just took my first course from Front Sight. Many thanks to John for hooking us up with the 4 day Practical Rifle.

There's some discussion in that thread, but I figured I'd start a new one.

First off, getting there was very easy. I went straight to the range from my house, and it was a 4-4:30 hour drive from West LA. It would be an easy 4 hours from anything E of LA. Just take the 15 to Baker, get on 127 behind the Mad Greek, go up through Death Valley, turn right on Old Spanish Trail, Left on Front Sight Road. The road (including the last 4 miles into FS) is all paved, and would be fine for low-clearance cars or motorcycles. There's an RV parking area just outside the gate.

Front Sight claims to train more people than all other training facilities put together. I'd believe it. There were supposedly 300+ students at the facility, and the main lecture hall was just about at capacity.

The format for days 1 and 2 were: Morning Lecture, Morning Range, Lunch, Afternoon Lecture, Afternoon Range, Evening Lecture. Day 3 was almost all range time, followed by a 1 hour night-shoot. The morning of Day 4 was spent re-zeroing and then running through the "course eval", and the Day 4 afternoon was taking the course eval (3 body shots & 3 head shots from 15/25 yards + 3 body shots from 50/100/200 yards + 3 close range "hostage taker" shots + malfunction drills)

There were 63 students in the class, with a wide range of skill levels. We had everyone from a young Army 2LT (who got Distinguished Grad!) to a 55+ woman who had minimal previous experience (and who I was somewhat scared to be standing near).

The main lectures were given in the common room, to the assembled audience of hundreds. The speaker was good (presentation & content), and he did ask questions and get some interaction going, but the basic format was like a freshman-level college course to a packed auditorium.

The course started out slow, but sped up a bit over the 4 days. Total round count was well under 500.

In terms of gear, knee pads + cold weather gear are a must. Either cargo pockets or belt-mounted mag carriers are a must. A lightweight rifle will be better than something loaded down. Low power optics would be good. High-cap mags aren't really needed.

Since FS uses the "student/coach" model that means there was a line of 32 people firing at once. With 4-5 instructors, there was not much personal attention. I think I literally got 2 sentences of personal advice from the instructors over the course.

I was really not impressed with the actual training at all. The range commands were ambiguous, many times the course of fire was unclear, there was no communication as to how much ammo/mags/etc would be needed for a given drill, and in general it was a much looser format than I've experienced before, and than I would have liked.

As an example, a core point of this course is that you "get off the X" after shooting, presumably since your position is now known and will be getting return fire. This was never actually explained though. On Day 1, on the firing line, we were told to "get off the X". Sure, its not a hard thing to figure out, but the point of instructors is to instruct, not give vague commands.

It was usefull training, and I had fun, but my personal take is that it could have been a lot better. Some of that is definitely due to the large class size, but for me, my time/ammo/money will be be better spent elsewhere. (No offense intended to any Front Sight Members or Staff, just my personal opinion).

[barrym66]

Interesting to hear that there were so many students in the class - every class I've been in has had 40-45 max, typically around 35. I'm guessing they combined a few classes for the "B-day special"?

Hopefully the standards are not falling - though I tend to agree that the basic classes can be too simple if you are already an experienced shooter... it's possible that you did not get as much attention as you may have been ID'd as experienced already.

Tough to have a challenging class for all when you have to accommodate such a varied experience level in the students (from zero on up), I had a similar conclusion after my first handgun class. I still came away a better shooter and benefited significantly regardless.

[chickenfried]

just like mcdonalds has served the most hamburgers.

Front Sight claims to train more people than all other training facilities put together.

[wumicha]

OP, I completely agree. The training suffered due to the size and varied experience level of the class. I'm sure the advanced rifle class would be better, as the class would be smaller and students very familiar with their rifles.

Anyone know how many people graduated the practical rifle course?

[igsr96]

Do you have any prior training experience, before attending FS?

Thanks for the report!

[MustangGreg66]

I was in the same class and was thinking I'd write my own post, but maybe I'll just piggyback on yours here. I also found that the class was way too large for the number of instructors and I'd say simply in general thats too many. At no time did I feel unsafe, but I was also surrounded more by expereinced shooters than brand new shooters.

I found the first two days were way to slow. I understand that for the experience level of some of the shooters as well as the class size, it was necessary, but it was frustrating. Days 3 and 4 were a lot better since there wasn't any new learning, it was just practice of what we'd been introduced to. The last day there were also fewer shooters since a few dropped off. The night shoot was just about as perfect as it could have been. Far fewer shooters, I'd say 40 showed of the 63, maybe fewer. I actually didn't have a partner for the steel shoot part and shot all the relays, luckily I had all 5 of my pmags loaded

I also found the instruction lacking. They taught the technique fine and it was enough for me to imitate it, but they didn't go into why we were doing what we did. I was confused with the after action drill and kept forgetting steps because I wasn't sure why we were doing each step. A student who had been through it before (several times) took about 5 minutes explaining in detail to me, exactly what each movement is meant to do and how it would be applied in a real gun battle. In all fairness, when I asked the instructor he did the same thing, explaining the meaning of the movements to me for another drill (don't remember which drill). I found that whenever I had a question I was able to flag down an instructor after the drill and ask and get it explained (lucky me) or ask the guys around me. I really think that made the diffrence in my experience. If I had been along with all new shooters, I would have been at a disadvantage for sure and doing things wrong from the beginning... which I was since i watched the Magpul DVDs first and was going by "big boy rules" haha.

One thing I'm a little critical of them about is the skills test. I passed as a graduate, but barely squeeked by. I shot the worst on the skills test than I did all weekend. I really think I could have walked on the range day 1 and shot it better. But anyway, my point was going to be that a single round to the thorasic cavity often wouldn't be enough, and in an actual encounter you bet your ***** I'd be doing a double or tripple until he hit the ground, if it were a bad shot and he's still moving and a threat, shoot again. Just my opinion and I guess it's easier to score just one shot than two.

I'm not sure if I would take the beginner's course again. Getting the graduate cert I can take the second class, or a skills builder, which seems a lot more my speed. Get in, get it done and build those skills. I'd be bored to tears going through those first two days again.

As far as gear is concerned, they say train in what you'll be fighting in, so maybe we should all get out there in nothing than our boxers one day, mag in waste band xP ... maybe not. I used a tactical vest made by CamelBak which had the bladder in it. I wore it full all the time with three loaded mags and a dump pouch attached. I've gotta say it worked out well. Can't say I was ever undergunned. You can certainly do it with a lot less. At least one mag pouch and a dump pouch... or actually just the dump pouch would be fine, or large cargo pocket (basically I'm thinking of the tac & speed reloads). Comforterable knee and elbow pads are very handy for going prone fast, and you need to do it fast. 6.5 second to go from standing to the shot from 200 yds. For us on test day we had a hell of a wind, 20mph, so some kind of skimask or head wrap would have worked well (just make sure everyone knows your not the hostage taker ). Also, clear glasses for the night shoot and shades for the day or transition lenses like I used. Electronic muffs are wonderful, but I got by with regular ones. I ued a single point sling and I really liked it BUT it dug into my neck pretty good. Even with a collared shirt flipped up or jacket collar, I still have a rub mark on my neck from having it slung for 4-days.

AS far as ammo and mags. I always load for bear. I had 5 mags and always left one unloaded, had three in the vest and one in the gun when we load. That way I found that I could do tactical reloads or emergency reloads if I wanted during the after action drill of just a standard single shot drill, effectivly doubling my training. As far as the use of high caps, I found that in any set of standing drills, I never needed more than one 30rd mag loaded to 28, they'll pretty much conform the class to make it work to what you bring though so if you don't have it and can't get it, don't worry too much.

I drove from the bay area and just figured that with ammo, gas, food and splitting a hotel room in Pahrump it only cost me $800 to take the class. I might have been a little upset if I would have paid $2000 for that course, but then again, no matter how good it is, I don't think I'd ever pay that much for a course unless I was doing this for a living or maybe, just maybe if I was CCW, but not $2k for a rifle course, maybe if I had cash coming out the ears... but yea.

Don't get me wrong here either, I may have some criticisms about the course and our experience having such a large class, but I still had a great time and I'd take a class from them again. The instructors really know what they're talking about, you just have to ask questions to get the clarification you need. I really wish I knew the names of the guy I talked to because I found myself joking around with those instructors and after the simulator we had a pretty lengthy discussion of mindset when shooting and competition (USPSA VS IDPA VS Tactical Simulators) and I really got a lot from it. Also, I stayed after the lecture on how to pick a long gun/shotgun and was able to talk to that instructor for perhaps 20 minutes, just him and about 4 of us firing questions at him, haha. It was great.

One suggestion I would have is to take the class with an open mind and try the drills their way, there's a reason they do everything. Case in point, speed reload: They say symptom is a dead trigger, the fix is to look to identify, then reach for a fresh mag and verify you have ammo, THEN drop the mag and reload. I was thinking drop empty mag and reach at the same time, so I asked why they do it that way. Turns out, empty mag hitting the floor makes a distinct sound, so does loading, if you drop but don't load because you're out of ammo, your opponent may know that and charge you. So you check that you have more ammo before dropping the empty. May not apply as much to a home invasion robbery, but it's a method with a reason that makes enough sense for me.

</novel>

[sootytom]

FRONT SIGHT RIFLE PICTURES

HEY GUYS my lovey wife helped me get the pictures up from john's calgun party here's the link hope it works click on this link

http://s959.photobucket.com/albums/ae74/tomsoaringeagle/Front%20Sight/

OK all tell you about my experience I took the 4 day hand gun class 2-12 than 4 day rifle on 2-19 the han gun class FREAKING ROCKED instructor's BEN , MOON and ROWLAND WERE AWESOME I can't see how they could have done a better job. I learned more about shooting my glocks on my 1st day than I did shooting 10000 rounds last year.I took lots of notes re: stance,drawing,grip,sighting,trigger pull,malfunction 1,2,3 clearances,dry fire practice drills and on and on I have my own custom manual now.I learned how to practice perfect. My shooting has improved ,now when I go to the range I start with dry fire drills,malfunction clearance drills than I load up a couple mags w/ 4 rounds ea practicing double taps,emerg. reloads & single shot to head on 2 targets a box of ammo last a long time and I get lots of practice anyway the handgun class was AWESOME it was a real challange 10-12 hour days,homework, bedtime up early, practice dry fire drills and back to class X 4days.
The rifle class was all new to me the bigest problem was too many students the instructors were not happy about it and it showed. I heard they were doing some const work on another rifle range so that may have caused the problem the range master seemed to be getting upset that we could'nt hear him but it was a long firing line and we all had ear protection on. I learn alot and my shooting 100%+ while I was there I got a killer deal on a 1st family membership so I'll be back to front sight 5-6 times a year now next class is skill builder handgun both classes were great cust. service was great meet alot of great people and had fun with my guns
stay safe SOOTYTOM
the 1st few pics are of my mossey 590a1 that I ran over with my truck while at fs just broke the stock gun keeps on ticking

[nsginc]

Well my take was both like and dislike. I will start with the my dislikes. Class size just killed it for me. Plus some of the shooters just made me very uneasy. Then add the after action drills to it. Nothing like stepping on or getting stepped on with rifles off safe. There were many times I felt very uncomfortable with my classmates. At one point an instructor fell to the ground running to get to someone shooting behind the line. After that you can just see it in their faces they didn't care much about the class anymore after that. We got lucky to get moved to the end of the range on the second and third day. So seeing an instructor or working with one was very rare those days. Plus now we couldn't hear much. But we made the best of it. Best part was on the forth day when the instructor asked if anyone needed to check their zero. Half the class raised their hands. The instructor looked like he chat himself. He said "I thought maybe three people would have to" then sent everyone to the line. What where we doing the last three days?
So now the the good parts. The instructors knew their stuff and had real backgrounds. I got to watch an instructor sight in a rifle with a scope on sideways. Once he figured out WTF was wrong. Got it done very fast without flipping the scope over. Don't understand why people go to a class without sighting in before you get there. They did the best they could with a record size class. There just wasn't much more they could do to overcome the class size. I will try a handgun class sometime in the future. Plus there where no pressure sales at all. I would still recommend people to receive training there.

[SuperSet]

Good AAR. Thanks to all for posting their experiences. I've been thinking about taking FS advanced handgun/rifle courses but do not want to take the basic course as I have prior training. It seems like you don't have a choice and must take their basic course first and that's a bummer.

[powaybob]

I am headed there the first weekend in March for my second go at 4 day handgun. The reports here reflect my experience- class size too big, not enough instructors, wide range of student experience, good information, definite improvement in skills, and questionable skills test.

I'll let you know of my experience when I get back.

[MustangGreg66]

I guess your position on the line would change your experience a lot too. I'm sure there were people in the class I never got the chance to talk to or see them shoot. I kinda question the test since it doesn't really test the outcome of a real life engagement, but as far as what it's supposed to be, a simple test of skills, will that first shot hit the target and get the job done, it does what it's supposed to do.

I just was upset that I screwed myself up on energy drinks and coffee that day and performed poorly. Good enough to graduate, but I was gunning for a DG status. I think we really could have gotten more practice at 200 yards, that's where I needed the help, rapid assumption of prone and getting lined up way out there. But that's so hard to practice with a class since you have to tape between relays and check hits. Luckily I have 200 yards here at a local range at home so I'll be practicing that. One the skills test I had two in the white and one I pulled that wasn't even on paper at 200 yards... just abismal performance at that range.

I really think if I take it again I'll be using a 1-4x scope. It's not necessary, but some sort of magnification at 200 yards would be an advantage, and that's probably what I'll start shooting in 3-gun matches and Tactical matches here at home too.

One thing I'm not sure I mentioned was the vast diffrence in equipment on the line. There was a guy shooting a M1 Garand, bolt gun, AKs, ARs, a P90, Mini-14s, M1A (M14), ... And almost none of the ARs were the same (except the 4 or so that John brought and loaned out, haha). But anyway, I was able to look at some grear that I had never seen in person and saw it perform in person and was able to evaluate a little about them. I saw a Millet DMS 1-4 scope and was able to look through it in low light. Looks like a good scope, but not as clear as I thought it was going to be. I think maybe I'll be holding off for a better quality scope. It would be fine on a bright day (tho I think the ilumination washes out) and I like the reticle, but seeing as here in the bay we get a lot of overcast days and start matches in the morning... I think I want some clearer, brighter glass.