Arguments about IDPA rules

[Gryff]

This is a carryover from another thread where it would have been off-topic.

I think that is worth its own thread. I'm often frustrated by IDPA's rules. Then I go to an event where stuff is made up on the fly by people with no tactical clue and I admire IDPA's rules.

I agree about it deserving its own thread. There really are only two IDPA rules that don't make sense to me, but beyond that, I understand the rest of them because IDPA is trying to convert defensive tactics into a game. Some of the rules seem odd, but make sense when you understand their intent.

only 2?....guns and holsters?.....seriously, i've been away from idpa a bit...I value what you think they are...bare your soul....

Although I understand how people disagree about many of IDPA's rules, I see the reasoning behind them. I understand that when you make rules for a sport, you have to draw the line somewhere, and unfortunately items or issues that are right on the line become controversial (i.e. Uncle Mike's kydex holsters being illegal because the fail the "daylight" rule).

But the only two rules that I find to be completely ridiculous are:

1) That you cannot drop an empty mag and leave it if there is a round still in the chamber.

Slide-Lock (Emergency) Reload is recharging the gun when it is completely empty (page 41). Speed reloads (dropping mag with round in the chamber) are defined on page 81, and it states that "(t)here is NO provision for the speed reload in IDPA competition" (i.e. not allowed). And again later on page 81, "Should the CoF call for a Tac-Load and the magazine is empty while a round remains in the chamber, the empty magazine must be retained."

The point of retaining mags was because you never know how many rounds you'll need in a fight, and so you don't want to walk away from good ammo. But, it makes no sense to penalize a shooter for walking away from an empty mag. The justification I've been given is that you won't count your rounds in a fight, but it still doesn't make sense to have this as a penalty.

2) That you cannot reload in the open if you run dry and cover is available anywhere in the course of fire.

This is an odd rule and open to multiple interpretations. Many people believe that if you run dry while shooting on the move, you can reload immediately. Unfortunately, a strict interpretation of the rules says that you have to move to cover before starting your reload (assuming cover is available). This would be insane in a fight because if you go dry in the open, you are going to start your reload immediately.

Reloads may only begin when the shooter is fully behind cover (Rule C.3. - page 9 and reiterated at bottom of page 41).

But then the rulebook has wording that muddies the waters:
only three (3) IDPA approved reloads and they normally begin and end behind cover (Rule C.3. - page 8 - why the qualifying word "normally"?)
On page 42, the rulebook talks about "round dumping" being illegal if it is used to gain competitive. It uses the following as an example of how it can give you a competitive advantage, "A good example is firing extra rounds from a position in the open so you will be at slide lock and thus reload on the way to cover." If reloading in the open is illegal, how can round dumping for this purpose give you a competitive advantage?

So, in the end, we run our matches by the strict interpretation. I don't agree with it, but it does nobody any good to get away with stuff that will get them in trouble at a major match.

As I said, there are other rules that can be frustrating, but I understand the fundamental reasoning behind them. It is the two rules above that no sense to me.

And to be fair, all of these sports have their little frustrating rules. I know that in USPSA, there is a complete contradiction in that the rules say that a shooter has a right to see their hits on the target as they are scored, yet they also say that a competitor has no recourse if a hit is scored by an RO and taped before the shooter sees it. WTF? I also like how a shooter can get the "Standby" command, but can then draw their weapon and take a new sight picture if they feel like it (provided they do it before the buzzer goes off - Rule 8.7.1).

[chickenfried]

FTDR seems pretty ridiculous. Either they're following the rules or not.

[Fjold]

What's the first rule of gunfighting?


















There are no rules to gunfighting!

[Gryff]

FTDR seems pretty ridiculous. Either they're following the rules or not.

I disagree. There are procedural penalties for the small things like walking away from a loaded mag or hanging out too far from cover. FTDR is basically for blatant/egregious cheating.

What's the first rule of gunfighting?

There are no rules to gunfighting!

Except IDPA isn't gunfighting, nor is it training for gunfighting. It is an effort to make a game out of defensive shooting principals. People who think that it's training are going to get themselves killed if they ever get in a gunfight because while the sport hones your weapon-handling mechanics, the scoring-based-on-time element flies in the face of defensive tactical principals.

[TurboS600]

What's the first rule of gunfighting?


















There are no rules to gunfighting!

NOPE, first rule of gunfighting is ......






















You do no talk about gunfighting!

[singlestack]

just play the game!

[CRTguns]

IDPA has its rules- if you don't like them play a different game- why so difficult to understand?

The game is not there to emphasize or teach shooting skills... That may be secondary.

The point to IDPA is beaing able to ADAPT and FOLLOW instructions under stress. These skills will help you survive an actuall engagement.

Rules are there for your benfit and growth- if you can follow all te rules you can win a real shootout. Your brain will operate above and beyond the little shooting nuances required.

Shooting practice has little to do with sight picture and trigger control. It's about motor skills, balance, stability, composure, strength, stamina, coordiantion, perception of the world around you, perception of self, anticipation, and controlling the outcome rather than just letting it happen.

[CRTguns]

What's the first rule of gunfighting?




There are no rules to gunfighting!

There's a fundemental flaw with this statement.....



IT IS WRONG!

[CRTguns]

AND... "Failure to do Right" is what separates IDPA from IPSC.

So the "gamers" won't infect the game with their subversive attitudes.

[bohoki]

think of it like playing HORSE in basketball

if one guy has to do the stage on one leg left handed

so do you

i think it is lame to not allow half mag reloads

and you have to retain your mags but i'm betting they banned lanyards

i bet they have a rule where you cant have 2 guns too

i saw that one on american shooter years ago where they made you carry a ammo can and it hat to be at waist level they specifically said not to carry it high

i swear its like they just want to mess with you

i say tell them what to shoot and where to shoot from and let them find the best way

[PLINK]

Except IDPA isn't gunfighting, nor is it training for gunfighting. It is an effort to make a game out of defensive shooting principals. People who think that it's training are going to get themselves killed if they ever get in a gunfight because while the sport hones your weapon-handling mechanics, the scoring-based-on-time element flies in the face of defensive tactical principals.

I really wish more IDPA shooters would realize this.

I also agree with you on the empty mag, loaded chamber and reloading in the open when dry rules.

[mecam]

Here's where I'm kinda lost. Would a stage ever specify for a certain type of reload, like "reload with retention" and you do a tactical reload instead, is that a penalty against the shooter? To me the Tactical reload seems to be faster cause you can start moving as soon as that fresh mag is in the gun while still holding on to your partially spent mag.

Reload with retention = dropping the spent magazine into your hand and putting it in your pocket, then drawing the fully charged magazine and inserting it in the gun.

Tactical reload = partially spent magazine is ejected into the palm of the hand, held between the fingers and while another fully charged magazine is being inserted.

Also, why not allow cleats? I sometimes wear astro turf baseball cleats when I go to the movies and church. They are low profile cleats.

[Gryff]

i saw that one on american shooter years ago where they made you carry a ammo can and it hat to be at waist level they specifically said not to carry it high

i swear its like they just want to mess with you

Yes, a lot of CoF designers try a little too hard to be original. It might seem goofy, but trust me, after you have to design some stages for matches, it's tough to come up with original ideas.

i say tell them what to shoot and where to shoot from and let them find the best way

That's actually my philosophy as a match director. Too many MDs an CoF designers over-choreograph their CoFs, and there is nothing in the rulebook that says it needs to be this way. My philosophy is to say, "Here is the environment, here is the goal, here are the bad guys. Go figure out how to achieve the goal while obeying all IDPA rules."

I personally hate stages where they say, "yes, you can see targets x, y, z from point a, but you can't shoot them until you get to point b." You shoot targets when you see them. If you don't want me to shoot them, build the stage so that I can't see them.

Here's where I'm kinda lost. Would a stage ever specify for a certain type of reload, like "reload with retention" and you do a tactical reload instead, is that a penalty against the shooter?

No, never. The rules state that a CoF procedure cannot mandate one or the other. If you are supposed to retain the mag, it is the shooter's choice what method they want to use. (Appendix 2 - page 40)

Also note that the new rulebook specifically states that they frown upon retention reloads (of either type) because it is unlikely that a person would use this type of reload in a real fight. They encourage CoF designers to not require retention reloads (pages 41 and 50).

Also, why not allow cleats? I sometimes wear astro turf baseball cleats when I go to the movies and church. They are low profile cleats.

You wouldn't wear traditional cleats on the street in an everyday situation. I understand your attitude about turf cleats, but like I posted earlier, a line for a rule needs to be drawn somewhere.

[mocos]

sorry gryff....I opened pandora's box......

...ideal rule book goes like this.........aha! a..hole ! ...bang!
or faster mode... bang!bang!...a..hole!

[gose]

AND... "Failure to do Right" is what separates IDPA from IPSC.
So the "gamers" won't infect the game with their subversive attitudes.

Failure to do right is just a different name for "procedural".

IDPA is pretty much the same thing as USPSA/IPSC. They have slightly different rules and they both (very aggressively) pretend to be very distant from the other when, in reality, it's basically the same game.