Preventing Training Scars (Number of Shots)

[floogy]

I've been thinking of something as it relates to practice and training. Specific to a handgun for CCW (though it could be any firearm or manner of carry).

Typically people will train with and practice drills to improve their proficiency. Often these include a certain number of shots. Mozambique, double tap, draw and fire 1 to X number of rounds, etc. But X number of rounds may not stop the threat.

An efficient way to practice would be draw (or present, depending on your range rules) and fire 1-2 rounds, then repeat. But how do you prevent yourself from falling back on that training and practice when it counts? I wouldn't want to be in a situation where a threat presents itself and I draw and fire 1-2 rounds before stopping to assess, particularly with a handgun, where 1-2 rounds often does not stop a threat. Even if the drill includes firing 5 or more shots, that may not be sufficient. Even more concerning would be training extensively to fire a couple of rounds and reload, using partially loaded mags, then doing the same in real life with a still loaded mag.

There are certain drills where the target is numbered and the instructor or range coach will say a number and you shoot that number on the target. Maybe adjusting that to fire that number of rounds on the target. Possibly using multiple numbered targets and you fire that number of rounds, depending on the target. Avoiding sequential numbering like 1,2,3,4 to keep it interesting and more realistic. Even throwing in no threat numbered targets as well.

I haven't seen this mentioned by firearms instructors/trainers. What drills have you seen that may help with this?

[Oneaudiopro]

Many LE agencies train with 2 to the body and 1 to the head. That's fairly common.

[floogy]

Many LE agencies train with 2 to the body and 1 to the head. That's fairly common.

Yeah, it's the Mozambique or failure drill as I learned it. I wasn't aware this was common among LE agencies. I don't often see LE training for headshots. Which ones use this drill?

Regardless, it's a specific number of shots. If 3 rounds don't stop the threat, I don't want to fire 3, then stop.

[IVC]

You can't really train to assess a combat situation by shooting static (or even moving) targets that not only don't shoot back, but provide no ability to be randomly neutralized by a different number of shots. You'd need a target that has some sort of electronics that will let you know when it's been hit enough. But this might not work as intended either.

In reality, when you shoot you should call the shot and make a decision solely based on whether you call a hit or a miss. You don't have time to assess the target or look around for cues. So, training, e.g., a Mozambique (I hate the newspeak of "failure drill" or whatever) is about delivering a predetermined pattern no matter what happens to the target. You stop to look around only after you deliver (in this case) your three shots and you fire make up shots solely based on whether you called a miss, not based on what the target does.

My guess is that the only way to know what is or isn't effective is to be in an actual firefight, not even force-on-force training will provide you with the feedback on the efficiency of your hits. The drills you do at the range are like combinations in boxing, something you deliver as a package.

[elSquid]

[floogy]

You can't really train to assess a combat situation by shooting static (or even moving) targets that not only don't shoot back, but provide no ability to be randomly neutralized by a different number of shots. You'd need a target that has some sort of electronics that will let you know when it's been hit enough. But this might not work as intended either.

In reality, when you shoot you should call the shot and make a decision solely based on whether you call a hit or a miss. You don't have time to assess the target or look around for cues. So, training, e.g., a Mozambique (I hate the newspeak of "failure drill" or whatever) is about delivering a predetermined pattern no matter what happens to the target. You stop to look around only after you deliver (in this case) your three shots and you fire make up shots solely based on whether you called a miss, not based on what the target does.

My guess is that the only way to know what is or isn't effective is to be in an actual firefight, not even force-on-force training will provide you with the feedback on the efficiency of your hits. The drills you do at the range are like combinations in boxing, something you deliver as a package.

Good points. There is no way of knowing what will or will not work. It's unpredictable. So getting in a training rut with specific numbers of rounds in specific times may end up working against you. I learned it as a "failure drill" in the Marine Corps, so that's what stuck.

But yeah, looking at it as a "combo" is one way. Double tap, assess, double tap, assess would be an example.

That's a good answer though, maybe more directly related to what I was thinking than what I typed out.

The instructor in the video makes very good points about not outshooting your brain. So regardless of how you're training or what drills you do, shooting and assessing constantly is what's needed.

Shooting drills of specific numbers of rounds in the shortest time possible may be good for competition shooting, but chasing split times is not what we should be practicing all the time. Mainly a way of preventing a built in "number of rounds" that you may fall back on if under stress. Also, varying which drills are practiced may be a good way too.

[elSquid]

https://www.policemag.com/340305/shots-fired-jacksonville-florida-01-26-2008

[bazineta]

Mainly a way of preventing a built in "number of rounds" that you may fall back on if under stress.

The somewhat natural reaction under extreme stress is that your vision tunnels, your hands turn into flippers, and you fire until the magazine is empty. And those are the trained people; adrenaline is really something. You see training evolutions that are specifically geared to create as much stress as possible, but...it's still training, and you know it's training. Tough problem, certainly.

[ldsnet]

The classic argument, how many rounds is enough?
Train to stop the threat; the only way I know in training is a reactive target that can be programmed for how many hits before it drops.
They are cool and really expensive.
Train in fast doubles or triples like LE agencies and you should be able to articulate your actions as reasonable after the event.

[HKAllTheThings]

The somewhat natural reaction under extreme stress is that your vision tunnels, your hands turn into flippers, and you fire until the magazine is empty. And those are the trained people

Basically every OIS video now. Get the gun out as fast you can, point it in the general direction and mag dump until empty. How many rounds hit the target? Who knows?

[johncage]

https://www.policemag.com/340305/shots-fired-jacksonville-florida-01-26-2008

such a good story. he prevented a lot of future robberies, thefts, assaults, and murders when he blew that subhuman's head off

[HKAllTheThings]

Not a direct answer to your question, but obviously related…

I’ve seen a few instructors talk about shooting to a cadence and basically slowing down to assess each shot.



The point is to get away from chasing split times and “going cyclic” IRL. IIRC, LAPD SWAT aims for splits of 0.5 seconds.

— Michael

That video has been around for a few years and it's only come up again after Ralph Mroz's article.

It's a little strange arguing that you should go back to making the decision to fire after you've already made the decision to fire.

[elSquid]

That video has been around for a few years and it's only come up again after Ralph Mroz's article.

[HKAllTheThings]

http://www.evergreeneditions.com/publication/?i=761756&article_id=4346658&view=articleBrowser

[broadside]

http://www.evergreeneditions.com/pub...articleBrowser

Some reasonableness in there but a lot of assumptions and some garbage.

He is conflating making a good ability to assess/judge the situation with good marksmanship. They are separate skill sets.