Anyone take a class with Frank Proctor?

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Competition shooting increases your speed, accuracy and gun handling in a way that "tactical" courses will never provide for you, at a fraction of the cost. Shooting matches will prepare you for a gunfight, just like cardio and weights would, without being tactics related.

The guy in the video is Mike Pannone. Mike was Marine Reconnaissance, Army SF (Green Beret), Delta Force, Asymmetric Warfare Group and a primary firearms instructor for Federal Air Marshal Service. He was in the same Delta Force unit with Pat McNamara. Who also says competition shooting is the short cut for high level gun skills.

https://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/1...ment-mcnamara/

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

You'd probably do better trying to convince someone else to take your classes. No offense, but not for me.

I never said there wasn't any benefit to competition shooting or any carry over from one discipline to another.

Also noticed a student in one of your class videos put an empty magazine back into his mag carrier. Is that what you're teaching students these days? Ive always been taught to NEVER place an empty magazine bay into the mag pouch, and empty magazines go into pockets only.

[T3Pros]

You'd probably do better trying to convince someone else to take your classes. No offense, but not for me.

Under our equipment list, this is the first line:

*Positive attitude, willingness to learn, sense of humor

You don't have the requisite equipment for our classes. I did recommend instructors with a competition and tactical background in an earlier post, and it sounds like you might take the Proctor class.

Also noticed a student in one of your class videos put an empty magazine back into his mag carrier. Is that what you're teaching students these days? Ive always been taught to NEVER place an empty magazine bay into the mag pouch, and empty magazines go into pockets only.

You've brought this up before, seems really important to you.

And you should probably edit the video that shows one of your students placing an empty mag back into their mag pouch instead of their pocket.

Funny, other instructors say empty mags on the ground, and partially loaded mags go into pockets, NEVER mag pouches, as mag pouches are for full mags only. Why are you pocketing empty mags? Why are you wasting time pocketing empty mags in a gunfight. See what happens when you wonder down the path of tactical minutiae?

Part of adult learning theory is that you can only correct someone so many times about so many things before it no longer registers in their brain. Empty mags in mag pouches is pretty far down the list of stuff we think is important. We don't waste student time with useless institutional dogma.

[SG29736]

Competition shooters can easily get practice shooting, gun handling, moving multiple times per month shooting matches.

Some shooters say that you only shoot for a couple of minutes at a match but you are there for at least several hours. They say that they can go to a range with a few other buddies to do some serious training and get more accomplished than shooting a match. That could be true. But when you ask them how many times they did this training on their own last year the answer is invariably once or twice, in a years time. And usually they don't do what they theoretically said they could do, they pretty much just did some plinking with a buddy.

I just think it's much easier to keep up with your skills when there are several opportunities to shoot matches every month. Many shooters can't regularly use a bay to shoot and practice, just shooting in a lane. Other then the shooters I see competing friends that I have that shoot only get out a couple of times a year.

[tanks]

Competition shooters can easily get practice shooting, gun handling, moving multiple times per month shooting matches.

Some shooters say that you only shoot for a couple of minutes at a match but you are there for at least several hours. They say that they can go to a range with a few other buddies to do some serious training and get more accomplished than shooting a match. That could be true. But when you ask them how many times they did this training on their own last year the answer is invariably once or twice, in a years time. And usually they don't do what they theoretically said they could do, they pretty much just did some plinking with a buddy.
...

Getting ready for competing also takes more training time. My morning routine EVERY DAY is to dry fire with my competition pistol and also with my favorite hunting rifle (13.2 lbs double rifle).

That way I start the day with a win, as if I accomplish nothing else, I still have trained.

[NorthBay Shooter]

I really have no desire to shoot competitively, for a few reasons, primarily it just doesn't appeal to me in any way. I also don't want to invest the time or money into it, and would rather find somewhere I can continue to take classes that focus more on defensive and "tactical" shooting (I put that in parenthesis because I don't like that term). I have enough "hobbies currently, and the competition thing really has no appeal whatsoever. I'm not saying that there aren't things that I would learn and takeaway and apply to defensive shooting, but I'd rather just go in a different direction to get that training.

Vinnie, totally cool you don't want to shoot USPSA. My suggestion was to get the safe handgun class and check it out. If you do, you can show up to open practice, every Saturday at Richmond. There you can draw from your holster, shoot pairs as fast as you want. Shoot multiple targets if you want. Do reloads and shoot, if you want. You can practice all your defensive stuff, like you would at FS, but at a local club, outside. Not a lot of indoor or outdoor ranges let you do that.

I'm an action range RO and offered to help. Up to you.

Added benefit, tons of really good shooters that will offer to help you on any specific question, for free.

[rodralig]

If you do, you can show up to open practice, every Saturday at Richmond. There you can draw from your holster, shoot pairs as fast as you want. Shoot multiple targets if you want. Do reloads and shoot, if you want. You can practice all your defensive stuff, like you would at FS, but at a local club, outside. Not a lot of indoor or outdoor ranges let you do that.

You have open practice up in Richmond!?! Whoa!?!

I need to follow up on the waiting list for one of the private ranges here, it's about $200/year, which makes it a good deal say, once~twice per month over a year, even an hour commute. There is one at Route 66 at $500+ - but way too far, and weekend bays are not guaranteed (or cost extra). *sigh*

I want my own range!
Time to buy that lottery ticket...

Getting ready for competing also takes more training time. My morning routine EVERY DAY is to dry fire with my competition pistol and also with my favorite hunting rifle (13.2 lbs double rifle).

That way is start the day with a win, as if I accomplish nothing else, I still have trained.

The thing that I noticed recently was once I am bent on getting a trophy in matches rather than just "enjoying" a match - I am more conscious/deliberate of my stage plans, technique, movement, etc. and off-match training (both live and dry).

My brain works harder... I am more involved than simply going through motions. I think these, at the least, are good things (for one, it does speed my development).


_

[NorthBay Shooter]

You have open practice up in Richmond!?! Whoa!?!

I need to follow up on the waiting list for one of the private ranges here, it's about $200/year, which makes it a good deal say, once~twice per month over a year, even an hour commute. There is one at Route 66 at $500+ - but way too far, and weekend bays are not guaranteed (or cost extra). *sigh*

_

Yep, every Saturday we have open practice. Normally there is a static line with about 20 targets, a couple of steel plates and a plate rack in one of the bays. Then there is a practice stage in another bay that one of the RO's runs. You just put your name on the list and shoot the stage. The cool part is not only can you practice on the static line, you can practice on a stage. You can run it forward or backwards or only shoot some of the targets. No one really cares. You simply tell the RO am going to shoot front to back or whatever. If they are cool with it, then you are good to go. As long as you're safe, it's all good.

If there is a match on the same weekend, then the practice stage gets modified a little and is one of the stages in the match. This weekend is like that. Practice from 9-1 on Sat, then the match starts at 3.

You should make the trip up some time for a match. It would be fun to shoot with you.

[tanks]

...

I need to follow up on the waiting list for one of the private ranges here, it's about $200/year, which makes it a good deal say, once~twice per month over a year, even an hour commute. There is one at Route 66 at $500+ - but way too far, and weekend bays are not guaranteed (or cost extra). *sigh*
...
_

Raahauge's is $500 something, and you get your own private bay. However, M-F only. ROI is pretty quick if you shoot often.

[sigstroker]

Competition shooting increases your speed, accuracy and gun handling in a way that "tactical" courses will never provide for you, at a fraction of the cost. Shooting matches will prepare you for a gunfight, just like cardio and weights would, without being tactics related.

Competition also puts stress on you that practicing cannot.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I really have no desire to shoot competitively, for a few reasons, primarily it just doesn't appeal to me in any way. I also don't want to invest the time or money into it, and would rather find somewhere I can continue to take classes that focus more on defensive and "tactical" shooting (I put that in parenthesis because I don't like that term). I have enough "hobbies currently, and the competition thing really has no appeal whatsoever. I'm not saying that there aren't things that I would learn and takeaway and apply to defensive shooting, but I'd rather just go in a different direction to get that training.

You already have a holster, magazines, and a mag pouch. You're not required to buy gamer gear to go shoot a match. Run what you would carry. It forces you to problem solve and shoot. It also gives you an objective measurement on target engagement and time. There is no better way to learn how to run your gun and what your limitations are under stress with no downside.

[HKAllTheThings]

[Brother_Hesekiel]

I have a buddy at my local IDPA club who shoots a match every weekend. He's big into .45ACP. Those rounds are now about a buck apiece. If you shoot a mix of IDPA and USPSA every weekend, you are looking at about $800 per month or $10,000 per year in ammo cost. Fact.

[rodralig]

You already have a holster, magazines, and a mag pouch. You're not required to buy gamer gear to go shoot a match. Run what you would carry.

I will second this

I still run stock internals, stock springs and stock trigger in my Glock 17 Gen 3 (with a 3rd party slide to accomodate the RDS) with factory 115GR ammo in my division. The gun/gear does not slow me down. I slow me down...

Yep, every Saturday we have open practice. Normally there is a static line with about 20 targets, a couple of steel plates and a plate rack in one of the bays. Then there is a practice stage in another bay that one of the RO's runs. You just put your name on the list and shoot the stage. The cool part is not only can you practice on the static line, you can practice on a stage. You can run it forward or backwards or only shoot some of the targets. No one really cares. You simply tell the RO am going to shoot front to back or whatever. If they are cool with it, then you are good to go. As long as you're safe, it's all good.

If there is a match on the same weekend, then the practice stage gets modified a little and is one of the stages in the match. This weekend is like that. Practice from 9-1 on Sat, then the match starts at 3.

That is so sweet! Which reminds me - I need to follow up on my application to that private range in my area. I got held up in my day job and it slipped my mind...

You should make the trip up some time for a match. It would be fun to shoot with you.

Yes, that is absolutely a good idea! I will ping you whenever...

I have heard good things about Richmond. I definitely need to find an opportunity for a trip north. Perhaps during the trophy matches, etc. It is just that right now, multi-day matches, in particular those requiring a bit of a drive/travel, are out of the question for now due to other priorities. Thus, am contenting myself with more local matches.

The trophy match earlier this month, sponsored by Nils Jonasson - 'Merica Match 2022 - was a good one... Not one of my better performances (there was a gap of about 3+ weeks going into the match, and I was told by my squad mates I was lagging my baseline + a few malfunctions) - but managed to snagged 2nd in my class. It was luck I would say - the difference between 2nd, 3rd and 4th were less than one (1) match percentage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s1QrHFGc-I

and got myself a nice limited edition liquor as the trophy.. ... Problem is - I am not a Bourbon drinker...

I have a buddy at my local IDPA club who shoots a match every weekend. He's big into .45ACP. Those rounds are now about a buck apiece. If you shoot a mix of IDPA and USPSA every weekend, you are looking at about $800 per month or $10,000 per year in ammo cost. Fact.

Fact. But not in the same context - why is there a need to shoot every weekend? Most do not go to a class every weekend.

I shoot twice-a-month. I shoot factory 9s at 35cpr. The matches are designed to be low round count - 200-rounds ($70). Match fees are $45, which brings it to $230 per month. This much like any hobby really...



Larry Vickers is the same - he drills fundamentals in a square range. Extreme accuracy at speed.

That said, Frank has a subscription for this training videos. One can get further insight into his curriculum and teaching style.


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[SG29736]

I have a buddy at my local IDPA club who shoots a match every weekend. He's big into .45ACP. Those rounds are now about a buck apiece. If you shoot a mix of IDPA and USPSA every weekend, you are looking at about $800 per month or $10,000 per year in ammo cost. Fact.

That's what you're assuming. I shoot mostly 45acp at 2 or usually 3 matches per month. USPSA that has a higher round count then IDPA. I reload 45acp for about $19 per hundred. Less then 200 rounds per match more like 150 to 175. Even at 200 rounds per match 3 times a month that would be $114. Closer to $100 for me per month. That's shooting 45acp, less for 9mm.

No regular Joes are spending $200 per match for ammo and shooting 4 matches per month. Obviously buying factory ammo is more expensive but people who would have to pay $1 per round aren't shooting 4 matches per month. No way.

[NorthBay Shooter]

So it's the middle of July. I took a month off with COVID and had some extended times without going to the range. I have shot ~5k rounds so far. You need live fire to confirm dry fire and you need matches to confirm practice. The rounds add up. Sure you can shoot less, but I am the lowest round count with the guys around me. This weekend I shot ~300 for practice on Sat and ~200 at the match on Sun. If I was buying factory, it would start to be expensive.