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[Sam1234]

Why do you feel people should defend their decision to frequent FS, especially if it is not costing them any extra money to attend classes?

Also, all this talk about fraud, criminal conduct etc. are just allegations at this point. If there is provable fraud etc. he will end up in jail and the problem of his leadership at FS will solve itself.

Just to be clear I am not defending his marketing methods etc.. However, you are putting up a criminal mastermind straw man and then insinuating from that anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up.

That is not the case, and the fat lady has yet to sing.

You asked: "However, you are putting up a criminal mastermind straw man and then insinuating from that anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up."

I am not putting an imaginary criminal mastermind (straw man) person. I am putting up a real criminal and fraudster.

Am I insinuating anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up."

Well if you understand Front Sight was founded and even now being run on a con, then yes that is exactly what I am saying.

If you are ignorant of the facts and can't see it is a con then I would understand that position.

So the question hasn't changed are you ignorant of the facts or are you one who doesn't care and is going to get theirs?

No one seems willing to answer that question.

[tanks]

Stockholm syndrome is an emotional response. It happens to some abuse and hostage victims when they have positive feelings toward an abuser or captor.
Tank you do not need to defend your self to any one. But then why are yo seemingly needing our approval. If you really did not care you would just do what you want and not waste your time posting.

Let's see I paid $100 for membership and got back $50. Been to a number of training courses, one as recent as last week.

I don't see how that translates to being abused.

I definitely do not need your approval, just don't appreciate people trying to bully others to their point of view using emotional and false moral equivalency arguments. Hence, the reason for my posts.

As mentioned by myself and others, if the terms do not change and there are no extra fees, I don't see why people should stop going to FS if it suits them.

People will do what works for them despite your hate/animosity towards Piazza and FS.

[rodralig]

Battered woman syndrome?

You can see it play out here on this board. All of those who went off with I am out, screw Piazza. Then the little claw back of I would pay for this or that, that would be fair. Then screw him, then well I guess I will stay if nothing changes or if I give him some cash I can then use the fake money for background for a couple of years.

Why do you feel people should defend their decision to frequent FS, especially if it is not costing them any extra money to attend classes?

[Citizen_B]

This thread has so much crazy. I think that's why I keep returning.

OK based on this lates post I have some serious questions.

You wrote: "We all already know he plays marketing tricks."
A trick is a crafty procedure or practice meant to deceive or defraud

So by using word "trick" are you acknowledging his marketing was deceptive and fraudulent or was the word "trick" just a poor choice of words to describe your thoughts on this?

"trick" noun: 1. a cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.

Does that not describe the situation? Seems like you want to use a different word. It doesn't really matter to me.

Next you wrote: We all already know his "business" model is unsustainable when measured against proper practices.

Are you saying you believe his business practices are honest but badly done?

I'm not saying his business practices are honest and never have. I get the sense like you're trying to straw man my position. Again.

Warn newcomers about what? An honest but poorly run business or that is all a con and take advantage as best you can?

Warn newcomers about the past and current business practices of FS. People are smart enough to make up their own decision on what they want to do. I'm not going to tell people what they need to do, and you shouldn't either.

The real question can be summed as, do you really believe he has operated Front Sight honestly and his only mistake has been some bad business decisions?

No, I don't think he runs his business honestly. Please refer to the definition of "trick" from the top.

If it were not for all the facts that have been unearthed this past week that position would be a valid defense.

At present based on all the facts that are now known I do not believe ignorance can be used as a defense.

OK where is the emoji throwing a ball?

Again you're straw manning. Why do you think I'm "defending" FS? And again, you're painting only two options:

Option 1: Walk away from everything related to FS. Close your account and never look back. Pat yourself on the back for being righteous.

Option 2: Merely attending FS means you're an immoral SOB supporting the devil incarnate. Next stop, hell.

Sorry, there's just more to it than that. If you disagree with that, then I fully expect you to close your FS account, forfeit anything in your account, and never return to FS. If you show up at FS again, then you must (by your own limitations) be an Option 2 person.

What's ironic is you're making it your mission to argue with people who don't agree with your narrow perspective on FS. I don't care what you do. Attend FS, don't attend FS, sue FS. I don't care, you do you.

[-hanko]

wOOdmaster, the post just above yours is the perfect example.

Bad that Front Sight doesn't teach that.

[w00dmaster]

Stockholm syndrome is an emotional response. It happens to some abuse and hostage victims when they have positive feelings toward an abuser or captor.
Tank you do not need to defend your self to any one. But then why are yo seemingly needing our approval. If you really did not care you would just do what you want and not waste your time posting.

[tanks]

...
The real question can be summed as, do you really believe he has operated Front Sight honestly and his only mistake has been some bad business decisions?

If it were not for all the facts that have been unearthed this past week that position would be a valid defense.

At present based on all the facts that are now known I do not believe ignorance can be used as a defense.
...

Why do you feel people should defend their decision to frequent FS, especially if it is not costing them any extra money to attend classes?

Also, all this talk about fraud, criminal conduct etc. are just allegations at this point. If there is provable fraud etc. he will end up in jail and the problem of his leadership at FS will solve itself.

Just to be clear I am not defending his marketing methods etc.. However, you are putting up a criminal mastermind straw man and then insinuating from that anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up.

That is not the case, and the fat lady has yet to sing.

[HKAllTheThings]

You can see it play out here on this board. All of those who went off with I am out, screw Piazza. Then the little claw back of I would pay for this or that, that would be fair. Then screw him, then well I guess I will stay if nothing changes or if I give him some cash I can then use the fake money for background for a couple of years.

Battered woman syndrome?

[Sam1234]

Honestly I'm not trying to paint you in a box. I'm not trying to "win" an argument - all this isn't a game to me. What I am trying to do, is point out that perhaps you incorrectly set up what you thought your options were. That and perhaps it's not wise to quickly cast moral judgements on others you don't actually know.

Look, I get it man. You're pissed and wanted to burn it all down. I'd be super pissed too if I bought the Knight upgrade and he pulled this BS. Reinstating all the past terms doesn't fix the damage he's already done. We all already know he plays marketing tricks. We all already know his "business" model is unsustainable when measured against proper practices. We all already know he could renege on past promises on a whim (though would potentially face legal consequences). We all already know FS could close down tomorrow without any notice. We all already know all of this. None of this is new information, at least to the old timers and those paying attention. My suggestion would be we each tread lightly, educate newcomers, and do what we think is right, preferably without passing judgement on others.

OK based on this lates post I have some serious questions.

You wrote: "We all already know he plays marketing tricks."
A trick is a crafty procedure or practice meant to deceive or defraud

So by using word "trick" are you acknowledging his marketing was deceptive and fraudulent or was the word "trick" just a poor choice of words to describe your thoughts on this?

Next you wrote: We all already know his "business" model is unsustainable when measured against proper practices.

Are you saying you believe his business practices are honest but badly done?

Warn newcomers about what? An honest but poorly run business or that is all a con and take advantage as best you can?

The real question can be summed as, do you really believe he has operated Front Sight honestly and his only mistake has been some bad business decisions?

If it were not for all the facts that have been unearthed this past week that position would be a valid defense.

At present based on all the facts that are now known I do not believe ignorance can be used as a defense.

OK where is the emoji throwing a ball?

[Sam1234]

I always thought he had some kind of a marketing calendar. Where he lays out the strategy for the period (month, quarter, year). With this latest back and forth, I now firmly believe this was all part of the plan. Push really hard at the end of the year to get some more cash. Then say we failed and he is going to have to do something drastic. The put it on hold, then say there is a new path for those who want more free stuff for the future.

It's classic. Make the offer and then tease it going away to get the FOMO (fear of missing out) reaction. Then change the rules and generate a high emotional response (good or bad it doesn't matter). Then take a pause and come back the bargaining table with a new offer and start to create the FOMO again.

You can see it play out here on this board. All of those who went off with I am out, screw Piazza. Then the little claw back of I would pay for this or that, that would be fair. Then screw him, then well I guess I will stay if nothing changes or if I give him some cash I can then use the fake money for background for a couple of years.

Sounds like you have a good grasp of things.

[Sam1234]

"PATH 2: For those members who recognize that immediate and necessary changes to our policies, procedures, and fees must be made to defeat the enemies attempting to destroy Front Sight..."

What "enemies"??

Yet again another pile of Pizza crap.

The enemy are the others. people not like us. people who don't jump to the cause and send much needed money. Those not willing to save Front Sight. Those that don't have the capacity to understand the true meaning of the purple robes and red sneakers.

[Muzz]

I myself will continue going to FS and taking classes as long as they are holding classes there. My background check fee is paid. Reservations for flights, car and lodging are made.

I can't see the argument attending classes further will only support Dr. Piazza. I'm spending practically no money on FS, though I know I am supporting the surrounding businesses. Lending a visual? He's got plenty of pics and videos of packed classes and parking lots.

If some of you guys stop going, that's your choice. I'll do what is best for me. If they start charging more money, I'll decide at what point I will stop going. If they don't, I'll continue to go.

[Citizen_B]

I always thought he had some kind of a marketing calendar. Where he lays out the strategy for the period (month, quarter, year). With this latest back and forth, I now firmly believe this was all part of the plan. Push really hard at the end of the year to get some more cash. Then say we failed and he is going to have to do something drastic. The put it on hold, then say there is a new path for those who want more free stuff for the future.

It's classic. Make the offer and then tease it going away to get the FOMO (fear of missing out) reaction. Then change the rules and generate a high emotional response (good or bad it doesn't matter). Then take a pause and come back the bargaining table with a new offer and start to create the FOMO again.

We'll probably never know the truth. Maybe Brad writes a book on it in the future. I do think he grossly miscalculated, went too far, and really f'd up this time. Judging from the speed and huge number of people responding on social media, lots of people are pissed to the point of fed up and checked out. I think damage has been done that will never be fixed.

[NorthBay Shooter]

I always thought he had some kind of a marketing calendar. Where he lays out the strategy for the period (month, quarter, year). With this latest back and forth, I now firmly believe this was all part of the plan. Push really hard at the end of the year to get some more cash. Then say we failed and he is going to have to do something drastic. The put it on hold, then say there is a new path for those who want more free stuff for the future.

It's classic. Make the offer and then tease it going away to get the FOMO (fear of missing out) reaction. Then change the rules and generate a high emotional response (good or bad it doesn't matter). Then take a pause and come back the bargaining table with a new offer and start to create the FOMO again.

You can see it play out here on this board. All of those who went off with I am out, screw Piazza. Then the little claw back of I would pay for this or that, that would be fair. Then screw him, then well I guess I will stay if nothing changes or if I give him some cash I can then use the fake money for background for a couple of years.

[-hanko]

Even more of the same old schit...

"PATH 2: For those members who recognize that immediate and necessary changes to our policies, procedures, and fees must be made to defeat the enemies attempting to destroy Front Sight..."

What "enemies"??

Yet again another pile of Pizza crap.