9 vs 40 splits

[vospertw]

I agree with this completely.

In a real SD environment, things are dynamic and your level of training (mental/physical) are tested to the limits. The easier it is to run the gun, the better off you'll be overall as your attention will largely be focused on other things.

I dont want to get wrapped around the axle on this, because I agree. I used trigger speed as an example, but it could be eyesight, reflexes, etc. My point is that recoil management isn't the only driver; there are other factors and one or some of those may limit our follow-up shot speed more than recoil. The books I mentioned make the argument that no matter how fast you are with a 40, you will be faster with a 9mm because of the lower recoil involved. I'm saying that's not necessarily true.

I'm not advocating the 40 over the 9 either. I chose 9mm for carry and home defense but not solely because of the increased speed of follow-up shots.

[vospertw]

Just for clarity's sake, I'd like to point out that the split for 5 shots/second would be .20 sec and that for 4 shots/second is .25 sec...which is indeed 20%.

Even using your percentages, the difference between .25 and .33 is only 24%, not 30%

No, that's not correct. If you shoot five shots, you have four intervals because your first shot is at time 0.

X---X---X---X---X

That's four intervals for 5 shots, .25 sec each in my example of 5 shots in one second. Similarly for 3 intervals with 4 shots.

Also, the split time increases by 32% from the 9mm split to the 40 cal split in my example. The delta is .08, .08/.25 = .32 or 32%. You calculated the split DECREASE starting with the 40 cal split time of .33 sec. The decrease in split time from 40 to 9 in my example is indeed 24%. Think of it this way, from 100 to 200 is a 100% increase, but 200 to 100 is a 50% decrease.

Doesn't make any difference to the discussion really, but wanted to defend my math skills...

[vospertw]

To OP: At power factor for IDPA, shooting at a IDPA target at 7 yards:

Cz 75b - fastest splits .10 recorded to date. Bill drill all down zero average is .12

XD40 tactical - fastest splits .11. Bill drill all down zero .16.

Note for my own personal reasons I do not shoot .40 unless I am going to play USPSA limited major.

Thanks Ghost!

[rkt88edmo]

I'm saying that's not necessarily true.

But it pretty much is true.

Look at Ghosts data, 3 shots of .40 or 4 shots of 9, by his times. Pretty much same as your own examples and both of those are certainly within the range you originally deemed as significant. I think you are also underestimating the time it takes to develop and maintain the skill to get those splits significantly closer together.

[vospertw]

But it pretty much is true.

Look at Ghosts data, 3 shots of .40 or 4 shots of 9, by his times. Pretty much same as your own examples and both of those are certainly within the range you originally deemed as significant. I think you are also underestimating the time it takes to develop and maintain the skill to get those splits significantly closer together.

I noticed that last night with his split times as well. I don't underestimate the time required; I know it would take a lot of training and it a shooter may be better off sticking with a 9mm and spending those resources on other skills. I guess I always have a problem when someone says "always" when it seems to be not that simple. Maybe a hold-over from my ex-wife.

[rmatt]

My splits are virtually identical.

[rmatt]

Jon, the only one who has posted numbers, is also an aberration.

[Gh0sT]

To give you further data: a few weeks ago I was challenged by a friend on what the fastest splits I can put on a stock Glock 41. First mag I put .11 three out of the 6 rounds. However accuracy suffered.

I am sure I can get my XD .40 Bill drill splits down to the same level at the CZ 9 but it is going to take a quite of rounds and dedicated time to the weapon maybe a few thousand.

The debate of the best round will never end. Choose your box of cereal wisely.

[rmatt]

Most untrained shooters struggle to get .20 splits. Look at the FBI's recent switch on their own empirical data. Similar to what you're asking about. More of their agents, more of the time were able to get more rounds on target faster with 9mm vs 40sw.

A Special Agent doesn't get to practice the way a professional competitor does. Give a skilled competitor a run at it and the difference will be in the hundredths of a second because our shot timers don't record to the thousandth spot.

[vospertw]

Most untrained shooters struggle to get .20 splits. Look at the FBI's recent switch on their own empirical data. Similar to what you're asking about. More of their agents, more of the time were able to get more rounds on target faster with 9mm vs 40sw.

rmatt - I saw the link on the Internet to what is supposedly the executive summary. I haven't been able to find an actual copy of the study. My question regarding their results is "what distance?" As you know, you can get away with significantly more deviation at 12', which would be in the heart of self-defense shootings, than 21'.

[rmatt]

I think distance doesn't matter. The way I think about it is that if you're slower at distance and faster up close it is because of what you're willing to accept of your sight picture/sight alignment. Which is irrespective of caliber. Close can also mask horrible trigger control where distance exposes it.

I still stand by my personal observation from years of competition that for a trained shooter the splits between 9minor and 40 minor or major are virtually identical. But if you give the two different rounds to regular joes, they will be faster with the 9.

[Bob Hostetter]

rmatt is right about the experienced competition shooter. My splits using 9 minor in a M&P are basically the same as from a 40 cal STI using major PF ammo, or my Single stack 45 using hard ball. They all have sub 1.5 lbs trigger although the M&P has more take up and overtravel. What those splits are depends on the accuracy demands, 50 yard splits are going to be longer then 5 yard splits. However as experience and skill decreases splits between calibers will increase because of the lack of skill and experience.

From a defensive point of view I would favor the 9mm but that would be based on magazine capacity, not speed or power.