Pistol cartridge accuracy

[alvgalb]

The shot is a phenomenon in the limits of physics, this means small changes in design of the cartridges could have big differences in performance, bullet weight, shape, powder, case design. My question is, Do you find some 9mm cartridges more accurate to shot than others? and if comparing two different calibers for example 9mm with .45ACP would be possible to say that a .45 cartridge is more accurate than a 9mm or the converse?Even if a .45 cal has more feel recoil maybe the recoil is different cause the dissipation of the energy is different between two different rounds but also could be better balanced because a heavier bullet weight with powder combination produce a better performance in the shot
alvgalb
Thanks
Gunnison, CO

[huckberry668]

first off, accuracy and precision are 2 different things. Accuracy can be explained this way, POI=POA (point of impact = point of aim). It's your ability to sight in the gun, accurate enough ammo along with your shooting skills that enables you to hit what you're aiming at.

Precision is how tightly grouped the POIs from the same ammo, gun and shooter at a considerable/appropriate distance (25 yards for pistol, 100 yard for rifle typically). tighter the group the better or in your words, 'more accurate'.

2ndly, determine your purpose. 'performance' in what sense? stopping a 90lb old lady? a 360lb man on PCP? steel targets in speed competitions? accuracy at a 1,000 yards? 50 meter international style? 7-yard paper target at an indoor range? or a large dangerous game with thick bones and sharp teeth?

No caliber is more accurate/precise than others. Accuracy/precision is a result of ammo shooting out of a barrel at a target of record at a distance thus you can't separate gun from ammo when it comes to accuracy/precision. Where do you see caliber comes in play? the answer is 'no where'.

1 caliber is not more accurate than the other. Caliber is a set of specifications. It says nothing about the qualify of projectile, optimum accuracy velocity for the projectile design. Nor the firearm's barrel quality, length, chamber, bore dimension, finish and most importantly components fit for highest accuracy/precision potential.

So what am I saying? Buy a quality precision pistol with known accuracy potential. Use/load quality ammo befitting the gun with the highest accuracy potential projectile for the gun. Ensure the energy of the combo (gun, ammo) satisfies your purpose (defense, offense, competition, plinking). Whatever the caliber.

[maxx03]

first off, accuracy and precision are 2 different things. Accuracy can be explained this way, POI=POA (point of impact = point of aim). It's your ability to sight in the gun, accurate enough ammo along with your shooting skills that enables you to hit what you're aiming at.

Precision is how tightly grouped the POIs from the same ammo, gun and shooter at a considerable/appropriate distance (25 yards for pistol, 100 yard for rifle typically). tighter the group the better or in your words, 'more accurate'.

2ndly, determine your purpose. 'performance' in what sense? stopping a 90lb old lady? a 360lb man on PCP? steel targets in speed competitions? accuracy at a 1,000 yards? 50 meter international style? 7-yard paper target at an indoor range? or a large dangerous game with thick bones and sharp teeth?

No caliber is more accurate/precise than others. Accuracy/precision is a result of ammo shooting out of a barrel at a target of record at a distance thus you can't separate gun from ammo when it comes to accuracy/precision. Where do you see caliber comes in play? the answer is 'no where'.

1 caliber is not more accurate than the other. Caliber is a set of specifications. It says nothing about the qualify of projectile, optimum accuracy velocity for the projectile design. Nor the firearm's barrel quality, length, chamber, bore dimension, finish and most importantly components fit for highest accuracy/precision potential.

So what am I saying? Buy a quality precision pistol with known accuracy potential. Use/load quality ammo befitting the gun with the highest accuracy potential projectile for the gun. Ensure the energy of the combo (gun, ammo) satisfies your purpose (defense, offense, competition, plinking). Whatever the caliber.

^ One of the best post on this forum.

[TomReloaded]

Certain cartridges are more accurate by design. Has to do with how the powder burns in a given space.

That gets a little silly to discuss in a handgun though. For rifles, theres definitely calibers that are more accurate than others.

25 yards is a far shot for groups in a pistol, but reeeaaallly close for shooting sports as a whole. Seems like past a few hundred yards the caliber choice starts mattering.

[J-cat]

I dunno which is more accurate. Schuemann claims he can get half-inch groups at 50yd with his 45 ACP barrels out of a fixture. I read that AMU M9's shoot 1" at 50yds from a Ransom Rest. There are over a 100,000 Sig P210's out there that printed sub-2" at 50m prior to departing the factory. Les Baer sells his 1.5" at 50yd pistols, but not in 9mm I don't think. I got my AR15 9mm to shoot 1.25" at 100yds.

I guess it depends on the platform.

[micro911]

I have won many bullseye matches with my accurized 1911 and reload, 4.8 grains of Win 231 behind 200 grain lead SWC bullets.

I never tried Ransom rest for my pistols. Shooting one handed, I tested my loads as I practiced.

[CK_32]

Honestly I'm lucky to im MOM(minute of man)...


I don't see how you guys can load test for pistols. I personally have so much human error its a waste of time for my self IMO.

[JTROKS]

I have a 38Super comped racegun built on a Caspian hi-cap frame with a Caspian 5" slide. The barrel is a Limcat bull barrel and it printed 1.5" at 50 yards. The load was 115 grain Zero JHP, 8+ grns of WAP, CCI small rifle primers and Starline brass. Optic was C-more 4 MOA dot. The gun is rebuilt by Limcat after the first top end was shot out.

[J-cat]

Honestly I'm lucky to im MOM(minute of man)...


I don't see how you guys can load test for pistols. I personally have so much human error its a waste of time for my self IMO.

1. Load development is fun and interesting.

2. Many loads are turds. It's worthwhile to eliminate them. It always best to go with the optimum load.

3. Load testing will tell you if your gun is defective.

4. Load testing exercises your trigger finger. It's like shooting on your feet except you're sitting down and your gun doesn't shake.

5. Load testing is an efficient and cost effective expenditure of ammunition components.

[Grunt81]

Yeah, not to sound like a snob or anything, but some people just suck at shooting pistols. Good shooting skills to me, means 8/10 rounds touching at 7 yards, and consistent hits at 100 yards. Even then, skills must be kept sharp or they will go away.

A projectile is a projectile, and the factors that make rifle bullets accurate at long range still apply to pistol bullets, such as profile, ballistics coefficient, velocity, ability to cut through the wind (less drag) etc... You can see how pistol bullets suck for long range accuracy. This is fine. Pistols weren't invented for long range precision. They were invented for close quarters combat. The military states the maximum effective range for the 9mm is 50 yards - not because it won't sail a mile away if you point it up at 45 degree angle, but because the inherent accuracy of a 5 inch barrel at 9mm velocities with enough energy to take an enemy out of the fight, albeit wounding only, with most shooters capabilities who train for combat, shouldn't be expected past 50 yards.

But like I said, a projectile is a projectile. The issue with non-magnum, magazine-fed, semiautomatic pistols, is that the case is limited to a magazine which must fit into the pistol grip. This limits case capacity, thus, it limits velocity, energy on target, and effective range. But it works!!! It works for the application in which it was designed for, expedient close quarters engagements.

Not including muzzle-loaders or Desert Eagles, when you compare just 9mm, 40, 45, there is a point in the trajectory where all things become pretty much equal in terms of momentum and energy on target. Once again, this is due to being limited to a magazine which must fit in the pistol grip. You either start off light and fast, or heavy and slow. Pick your poison.

Now to answer your question, round nose seems to carry its energy farther because it is aerodynamic. It cuts through wind and through a human body with a hole slightly smaller than its diameter. But any imperfection in the round nose itself can cause a wobble that takes it off target at 100 yards. Then there's the flat point. Its blunt tip is more affected by wind, but it smashes into it tissue and bone and can be relied on to make a wound cavity larger than the bullet diameter. Hollow points impart the most energy onto target, are less aerodynamic than most, but are arguably stabilized in flight due to the mass being shifted to the rear of the bullet. Then there are the guys who swear by the accuracy of the hard-cast, lead semi-wadcutter which I believe to be devastating on target, even though I've never used them.

Personally, I've gotten the best accuracy out of a Glock 17 and Beretta 92F, at a steel torso at 120 yards, using 124 grain flat points, in a Storm Lake 1:16 4.5" barrel.....but, I don't mass load that bullet just due to sheer accuracy at 120 yards. I mass load the 135 grain round nose flat point. Within realistic pistol ranges, I prefer the slightly higher mass and energy that bullet will give at ranges closer than 50 yards.

I once saw video for an Accuracy International 1911 in .45ACP. From a vice, it shot 10 rounds into a 3/4" group at 50 yards. I don't know if they still make it. It was least a couple grand if not 3. That's more than I would ever spend on a pistol whether I was competing or not. If you are asking because you compete or want to get into it and need to make power factor, it's up to you to determine which bullet you want to shoot.

I believe in load development for pistols. But the intricacies of what makes precision ammunition are better left for experiment in rifle cartridges. By design, most semi-automatic anything is beat in precision by a bolt action or revolver, but these pistols can dam sure get you out of a bind and protect your home better than a bolt action or revolver for obvious reasons.

Jm2C

[JTROKS]

I've always get good results with semi-wadcutters, but make sure bullets are sized properly for the bore of your pistol. Using same brand of brass and lot is very important. Consistency is the key. Some pistols just won't shoot due to the barrel and/or loose tolerance in the full battery position. I had a 1911 in 40 that just won't shoot better than 3" at 25 yards. The lock up is tight and done properly. It was the bore being slightly oversize near the muzzle. I now have a Nowlin barrel installed and last time I shot it produced a group just over an inch CTC at 15 yards. if it wasn't for the flyer I can brag how good I am, but with my eyes requiring new prescription keeps me humble.



Most gunsmiths that specializes in precision 1911s have a barrel fixture to test out the accuracy of a barrel. If it will shoot 1" at 50 yards then it's up to the gunsmith if he can install that barrel to full potential. In a 1911 that means tight tolerances in the barrel to bushing to slide fit. The barrel hood, upper and lower lugs must be cut precisely for accuracy, but allow reliable function.

[Mike402]

I did an OCW test for my Sig X5 .40, and found that lower end charge weights were more accurate (at least in my gun). I nearly got some one hole groups at 25 yards, but always had a flyer.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=973256&highlight=pistol+ocw

[Cowboy T]

Load-testing helps especially when you're using cast boolits. I'm a caster, so this does matter for my loads. If you've got a certain hardness of alloy, it can help to make sure your load provides enough pressure to obturate the boolit as it leaves the case and enters the chamber, and to keep obturating the boolit as the rifling engraves it. I had that issue with my hot .45 Colt load due to the alloy being BHN 15-16. The load had to be bumped up to prevent pretty severe lead-fouling. I ended up right at the max in the Ruger/TC section. The revolver in question is a Super Redhawk 454, so it can take that and much more.

This particular load is very precise for a handgun load. It also happens to work very well in Winchester .45 Colt leverguns and its various clones.

I've also learned that when you get to the extremes of low vs. high, load testing can tell you if that's a load you want to use. For example, Hodgdon lists a starting load of 5.0gr Titegroup under a 200gr cast bullet in their Cowboy Action section. I tried that load in two .45 Colt revolvers, and the results...worked, but there was a whole lot of unburned powder. The loads sounded more like a "pop" than a "bang". At 5.4 grains, things improved, and from 5.7gr onwards, I got results that I would consider acceptable. I settled on 6.1gr, which is still well below the listed max for that cast bullet weight. Again, the revolver was the Super Redhawk 454, with the 7.5" barrel.

That load is reasonably precise for where I practice. My range only goes out to 25 yards.

For your semi-autos like 9mm Glocks, 1911's in .45ACP, etc., your powder charge ranges will necessarily be narrower, since you need to actuate the slide. Within those limits, you can tune your load to help keep down recoil some if you wish. A friend did this for his daughter who liked to shoot Daddy's 1911. He found that he, too, liked the load.

These sorts of things are why I find load testing valuable. That, and 's'fun!