Redding Type S Expander Ball Question

[HK Dave]

I have always used Redding Type S Full Length sizing dies for my tactical style bolt action and semi auto brass with titanium bushings and the stock expander ball installed.

I've lately been reading about folks not using the included expander ball, or switching out to carbide.

I don't need any more accuracy out of my rifles.

Any advantage to sizing without the expander ball or switching to carbide?

[eric n]

I take mine out because it never made sense to me.. Why squeeze a round neck down to pull a ball through it and open it up?
It seemed to me an easy way to not work the brass anymore then needed.
If you are happy with your loads don't change anything.

[JMP]

If you are using neck bushings, use the regular decapping rod without the expander. If you size the neck appropriately, with the right bushing, further altering neck diameter with an expander is counter-productive. You'd want to use an expander if you have dented mouths.

[thmpr]

I had the same issue and ended up going back as the bullet seater was leaving marks due to the nect being to tight.

[BigBronco]

If you are not using a bushing sizing die and turning the necks the ball sizer sets the neck tension. The carbide sizer ball will minimize case length stretch when resizing. However as informed by the Redding techs it is not as concentric as the standard one. for most this is not an issue.

Keep in mind for most reloaders using varying brands of brass the neck thickness varies. Not using the ball sizer will result in a larger degree of inconsistent neck tension.

[bigedp51]

The expander ball is used on new cases or fired cases with dinged up case mouths that need straighten. There after the expander ball is removed, this is covered in most bushing die directions and at the link below.

How to Load More Concentric Ammo

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/how-to-load-more-concentric-ammo/

With standard off the shelf factory rifles you will get "less" runout with standard full length dies. Bushing dies are a carryover from benchrest shooting and custom chambered rifles. At the same website as the link above there is an article on this subject plus neck turning and runout.

[HK Dave]

First off, thank you all for your replies and please pardon me if I am ignorant.

I take mine out because it never made sense to me.. Why squeeze a round neck down to pull a ball through it and open it up?
It seemed to me an easy way to not work the brass anymore then needed.
If you are happy with your loads don't change anything.

If you are using neck bushings, use the regular decapping rod without the expander. If you size the neck appropriately, with the right bushing, further altering neck diameter with an expander is counter-productive. You'd want to use an expander if you have dented mouths.

Any idea what the expander brings the brass out to? The manual seems to say that the expander should be use in conjunction with the bushings. Maybe I'm misreading?

Wouldn't it make sense to have the bushing size and uniform the outside of the case at the same time the expander is uniforming the inside of the neck?

I had the same issue and ended up going back as the bullet seater was leaving marks due to the nect being to tight.

So you used the bushings without the expander ball and found that the necks were too tight?

If you are not using a bushing sizing die and turning the necks the ball sizer sets the neck tension. The carbide sizer ball will minimize case length stretch when resizing. However as informed by the Redding techs it is not as concentric as the standard one. for most this is not an issue.

Keep in mind for most reloaders using varying brands of brass the neck thickness varies. Not using the ball sizer will result in a larger degree of inconsistent neck tension.

Hmm this is making me wonder if I even know what a ball sizer is and whether it's even installed.

If I'm not using a bushing, how would the ball sizer set the neck tension? Isn't it smaller than a fired brass neck? It wouldn't size at all right?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding terminology.

The expander ball is used on new cases or fired cases with dinged up case mouths that need straighten. There after the expander ball is removed, this is covered in most bushing die directions and at the link below.

How to Load More Concentric Ammo

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/how-to-load-more-concentric-ammo/

With standard off the shelf factory rifles you will get "less" runout with standard full length dies. Bushing dies are a carryover from benchrest shooting and custom chambered rifles. At the same website as the link above there is an article on this subject plus neck turning and runout.

Ah interesting, so basically, new cases or bent cases, run the stock expander ball and then replace the expander ball with an undersized retainer so only the bushings touch the neck on the second go around.

Do they make different undersized retainers? Any suggestions on which?

Thanks again gentlemen.

BTW, the way I've been reloading, with the stock expander ball, two of my custom bolt actions are shooting 1/4 to 1/3rd moa groups and my 308 semi is running sub 1/2 moa groups so I'm wondering if it's all going to make much of a difference.

[eric n]

I'm no expert, so here's my worthless 2 cents on how much it expands it.
It depends... Are you lubing the inside of the neck? How thick are the necks? Do you neck turn? How much neck tension are you running? etc...
Truthfully, I originally took it out because I read that it can effect concentricity as it pulls back through on the down stroke. At that time I had no way of measuring if it in fact contributed to runout, however, I can say for fact my runout is low without it.
You can polish it or sand it to a smaller diameter if you are worried about it, and I think you can get smaller diameters from Redding.
I get the same results as you do, just a different path. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
How is your brass life on your bolt guns?

[HK Dave]

I don't lube the inside of the necks... I use various types of brass from Lapua, LC LR, PPU, FC... no neck turning... I generally measure a loaded round and take off .002

Perhaps I should just get smaller diameters from Redding... I wonder if theres someone there that would talk to me about this.

Prior to reloading, I shot factory ammo... a LOT of factory ammo and I have so much brass that the heaviest used has 3-4 loadings with an annealing at 3 firings. Majority of my brass is probably 2 loadings.

[JMP]

Any idea what the expander brings the brass out to? The manual seems to say that the expander should be use in conjunction with the bushings. Maybe I'm misreading?

You'd have to measure the effect of your expander ball. If it's a little undersized so that you do not need to pull it out with tension from the ball from inside the neck, then the expander ball doesn't hurt.

[eric n]

Your neck diameter is now what the expander ball is, not the bushing.
Measure a case neck sized with the button and one without. If there isn't any difference don't sweat it, you are throwing money away...Try it without, its free and will not hurt anything other then making your brass last longer.(your neck tension may be different)
Google ''bugholes from a bipod'' and read the reloading part.

[bigedp51]

A bushing die does not require a ball expander, the neck tension is set by the inside diameter of the neck bushing which comes in different diameters.

The whole idea behind neck bushing dies is to "NOT" over resize the neck of the case and do away with the ball expander.

I get much less runout with standard full length resizing dies and turned necks. Bushing dies are a carry over from benchrest shooters with custom chambers. On a off the shelf factory rifle the neck expands a great deal when fired. Then if you do not reduce the neck diameter in stages with neck bushings it can distort the neck and increase neck runout.

All you need to check this is a runout gauge after sizing your cases with the different type dies. Just because you are using a bushing die doesn't mean your necks are straighter and your cases have less runout.

[HK Dave]

Alright so I decided to go and do this scientifically and measure it all.

I used twice fired FC brass that measures .341 at the neck. I made sure each piece of brass measured the same in every way possible.

Test 1: Installed .335 bushing. I got a .335 neck measurement WITH the ball expander installed and what seems to be a more concentric neck. I took another piece of brass and sized WITHOUT the ball expander and got a measurement of .331

Test 2: Installed .334 bushing. I got a .335 neck measurement WITH the ball expander installed and what seems to be a more concentric neck. I took another piece of brass and sized WITHOUT the ball expander and got a measurement of .330

So from this I am deducing that the ball expander with this particular brass allows for .335 neck size and will not go further.

The thing I find odd is that after sizing without the ball expander, the necks seem to be significantly smaller than the actual bushing size, which will end up being more neck tension than I want.

Am I doing this wrong?

[eric n]

The necks should be the same diameter of the bushing, I just sized 3 different bushings and they all matched the stated diameter.
Couldn't tell you why its smaller... Is the inside of the bushing clean?
Sorry dude. I don't have an answer.
You have tons of brass and straight ammo. I still think you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist

[HK Dave]

Strange right? Yes the bushings are clean.

I wonder myself if I'm looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. lol

I was a little worried that the "possible" lack of neck tension was making my OAL longer when chambering in a 308 AR... but just tried loading a few rounds and it ends up being the same OAL.

Time to call Redding.