44 MAG reloads terrible accuracy HELP!

[Jared_]

So i have been reloading handgun and some small rifle for a year or 2 now. This my first attempt at a round with a rolled crimp and i am looking for some help with fixing my issue.

Brass once fired
Bullet xtreme 240 RNFP plated .430" ( I measured a handful of them)
Powder Alliant Power Pistol 11-13.5 grains (stepped in .5 grains)
Primer Winchester LPP ( not magnum)
Gun Winchester model 94

So i loaded these with the power pistol because powder is hard to come by right now and that is what i had on hand. i found a range test online that was really detailed and well documented that used the same load work up for a ruger super redhawk but with jacketed 240 grains that used loads of 11.5 - 13.5
( link to his post http://shooterslegacy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3990)

I tried to follow that to use as a good starting point, but when we took them out to shoot they were horrible at 25 - 40 yards missing left and right by 2 feet.

After shooting the 11gn,11.5gn and 12gn (5 of each) all with terrible accuracy i stopped and decided to try to figure out the problem before continuing. I don't have a chrono for velocity but recoil was extremely light

I have not had the chance to slug the bore of the 94, but i am thinking that is the next thing for me to do.
I am not sure if i put enough roll crimp or too much for that matter ( but i will add pictures later tonight)

COAL is right near max (but i will update tonight)

I will update this with more information when i get home

Any and all information to help me solve this would be greatly appreciated!

Jared

[J-cat]

If they are off target by 2 feet, you prolly over crimped them and they're tumbling.

[Carcassonne]

2 feet off is bad, but what was the group size? A tight group would mean your sights re off and not the load data.

Plated bullets tend to strip the rifling if they are accelerated too fast, but your load data @ 11 grains doesn't seem like it would be a problem.

The Extreame website says:

- Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We do not recommend velocities over 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and only a light taper crimp.

If you have a 16" barrel, your 13.5 grain loads will be just over 1500, so you shouldn't have a problem with 11 grain loads.



Was the barrel clean?




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[Jared_]

Thanks you for the responses so far! A little more about the day of shooting.

shot some factory Winchester white box 240 grain and it is very accurate with that ammo. Up until this time that is the only thing that has been put through this gun. First shot at reloads in this gun.

COAL is 1.582 plus or minus a few thousandths, which is the middle of the cannelure.

Barrel was clean after the 15 or so rounds. a little bit of powder but no lead or copper.

Barrel is 16" with a 1 in 38 twist

There was no grouping to speak of. everything was hitting around the target with no rhyme or reason so to speak of.
This is what all of the crimps look like from that day. should i pull one and see if they are cutting into the plating?

[chknlyps2]

I use the same xtreme bullet and crimp a tad more than yours for my revolvers. It looks like there is a ring between the flat point and the crimp, is your seater plug putting that there and do you think at the speed your pushing them that crease or ring is tearing and plating is coming off? Were the holes in the target nice and round, keyholed or jagged?

[Dark Mod]

The crimp looks fine, although it seems like something is ripping the copper plating off.

the other potential is that the bullets are a tad too small. Heres what i would do:

Fix seater plug issue, get a seater plug that better fits the profile of the bullet, load a few and test them.

If the problem persists, remove all crimp and load them one at a time and test a few.

If the problem persists, slug your bore and make sure its not too large.

If the problem persists, load a few rounds with both plated and lead bullets. If they both work i would chalk it up to your pistol just disliking plated projectiles for some unexplicable reason and ditch them.

[Jared_]

Thank you
chknlyps2 and Dark mod. TBH they were not hitting paper, so it was hard to tell what the holes looked like. I will have to try again when there is less going on around with lots of people ( was shooting on PP with friends ) so not a really great test day. I see that there is the crimp line on the bullets on everyone that i reloaded ( dope me!) and yes this is caused by the seater plug ( i just pulled it) it is an RCBS die and im looking at their site and the closest i am seeing is a SWC seater plug? would that work and has anyone tried to get that sort of this at a LGS like turners. thanks again

Jared

[Carcassonne]

Thank you
chknlyps2 and Dark mod. TBH they were not hitting paper, so it was hard to tell what the holes looked like. I will have to try again when there is less going on around with lots of people ( was shooting on PP with friends ) so not a really great test day. I see that there is the crimp line on the bullets on everyone that i reloaded ( dope me!) and yes this is caused by the seater plug ( i just pulled it) it is an RCBS die and im looking at their site and the closest i am seeing is a SWC seater plug? would that work and has anyone tried to get that sort of this at a LGS like turners. thanks again

Jared

Use a flat nose seater. You should have one in your die set. Most companies include two seating punches with their die set: One for flat nose bullets; and one for round nose bullets.



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[Dark Mod]

Thank you
chknlyps2 and Dark mod. TBH they were not hitting paper, so it was hard to tell what the holes looked like. I will have to try again when there is less going on around with lots of people ( was shooting on PP with friends ) so not a really great test day. I see that there is the crimp line on the bullets on everyone that i reloaded ( dope me!) and yes this is caused by the seater plug ( i just pulled it) it is an RCBS die and im looking at their site and the closest i am seeing is a SWC seater plug? would that work and has anyone tried to get that sort of this at a LGS like turners. thanks again

Jared

Never used a SWC seating plug but I would assume its pretty flat. For what its worth I use the same exact bullets with lee dies and they do leave a seating ring similar to yours but a little lighter, and they are dead nuts accurate.

The other thing no one else mentioned and I hate to bring up because some people may take offense: Could it your shooting?25-40 yards is quite a bit of range for a pistol if your standing. Maybe bring it in to 15 yards and use a rest to at least get some on paper and take a look at the holes they leave.

I would definitely slug your bore too

[hermosabeach]

I like 2400 for loading the .44 mag

Crimp- fire three and then unload and measure the OAL. Did the bullets move in or out or did the OAL remain the same?

You so not need much crimp on lower velocity 44 mag rounds.



My dies are taper crimp so I am not sure what setting would work well with your roll crimp.

Start light and see how much is needed to keep the OAL the same with recoil.

[hermosabeach]

I recall one of the Hickok 45 videos and he had a lever gun that keyholed.
He said that he slugged the gun and then ordered a bullet that was slightly larger based upon the measurement of the bore.

[cwilliams]

I recall one of the Hickok 45 videos and he had a lever gun that keyholed.
He said that he slugged the gun and then ordered a bullet that was slightly larger based upon the measurement of the bore.

I was just going to mention the exact same thing. It was a Marlin 1894 in .44 mag and he could not use the same bullet or load that he used in his revolvers.

It's in one of the videos with the Marlin on this page - https://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45/search?query=1894

[Jared_]

Next Chance i get i will slug the bore, seems like that is just a smart thing to do because i plan on getting a mold in the future for 44 mag and would make sense to get the right sized boolits. Also the RCBS die i have was given to me used and with only the plug that came in it. I pulled it out and it is flat tipped but the profile isn't angled enough to clear the edge of the bullet. i will see if i can get a different plug. Dark Mod This is being shot from a Winchester 94 carbine with 16" barrel so accuracy is not on me for these bullets! With the factory ammo tight groupings are really easy. but i will still try closer to get some groups on paper at whatever distance is needed and go from there!

Anyone have a good place to buy lead balls for slugging?

[Jared_]

Also i have read that the Marlins had the Bore oversize issue but nothing about Winchester having this issue. If anyone has one and had issues like this from a rifle i would love to hear!

[Carcassonne]

The other thing no one else mentioned and I hate to bring up because some people may take offense: Could it your shooting?25-40 yards is quite a bit of range for a pistol if your standing. Maybe bring it in to 15 yards and use a rest to at least get some on paper and take a look at the holes they leave.

I would definitely slug your bore too

It is a lever action rifle with a 16" barrel. He says so in the first post (Winchester 94)


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