Automated Reloading Machines - Not your normal thread

[rndautomation]

Hello gentlemen,

A bit of background. I own a custom automation company out of Florida. We build custom automated machines and robotic workcells. We have been approached several times in the last few months about building a high speed ammo loader.

I'm not near the expert on ammo loading as you all are but I know enough to hold a decent conversation. I'm hoping to get some initial market research from you, the experts...

We've looked into some of themachines out there. Camdex and Bitterroot being the 2 most mentioned. The Camdex looks to be the entry level tabletop machine while the Bitterroot is fully automated and runs close to 80ppm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfxEgFz4Dp0

The Bitterroot machine is more like the style we've been asked to replicate.

Currently the Bitterroot machine is about $215,000 and they have a 2 year backlog of orders! Also they only run one caliber on each machine. Want to run 9mm? $215k. Now want to run .38? That's another $215k etc...

Our concept would have change tooling to allow multiple calibers (within reason) to be run on the same machine.

So my question is, in your opinion is there a market for another full automatic machine like this? Or is the market too small. Obviously the one man garage reloader is not going to be able to afford $200k for a machine. While the big players probably already have enough machinery to support their production. Is there a large enough market in the mid-sized reloading business to support this?

Any insight would be most appreciated.

[BigBronco]

The Dillon 1050 can be setup with a Ponsness Warren auto drive system. I think the cost would be about $3500 or less. While I am sure you could make a faster system, Would you be able to compete with the price point of this system?

[PoorRichRichard]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=auto%20ammo%20reloading%20press&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEAQtwIwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPyduO1FxJGk&ei=BJpeU5jQEI-cyASl0YE4&usg=AFQjCNEOkcusKLHKzF-EOLzH9nosMjQfCw&bvm=bv.65397613,d.aWw

[rndautomation]

The Dillon 1050 can be setup with a Ponsness Warren auto drive system. I think the cost would be about $3500 or less. While I am sure you could make a faster system, Would you be able to compete with the price point of this system?

Looks like the cycle time for that is about 3.5 seconds. We're looking at less than a second per round.

Also those brass/bullet feeders run about $2-5k each (depending on who's model you choose and speeds).

Does the Dillon also prime? Our machine would...

Again, I'm not looking at the 1-2 man operations. Looking at the markets that need a piece of machine that can run 3 shifts 24/7 for years on end.

Thanks for the info on the system however. Never too much information.

[rndautomation]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...65397613,d.aWw

Yes, I'm familiar with the Camdex. What was your comment about it?

Do you know how much they run (new?)

[klewan]

Getting the components, brass, bullets, powder, primers, has been a PITA for the last couple of years. I imagine the big guys have long term contracts to get them, but the new guy is going to be the last one in line. First thing somebody looking to buy your machine is to find out if they can get the components. You might want to do that yourself....

[RobertMW]

Looks like the cycle time for that is about 3.5 seconds. We're looking at less than a second per round.

Also those brass/bullet feeders run about $2-5k each (depending on who's model you choose and speeds).

Does the Dillon also prime? Our machine would...

Again, I'm not looking at the 1-2 man operations. Looking at the markets that need a piece of machine that can run 3 shifts 24/7 for years on end.

Thanks for the info on the system however. Never too much information.

Yes, a fully set up Dillon 1050 can de-prime, resize, swage the primer pocket, drop powder, seat the round, crimp, everything.

The market for a machine that can run 24/7 is already filled. There may be a market in medium sized manufacturers wanting to start selling full line branded prodects, from gun to ammo, like what Wilson Combat did a couple years ago selling their own branded self defense loads, what Sig just did with producing their own proprietary ammo line. I doubt that those lines are 24/7. The 24/7 lines are PMC, Winchester, Remington and the likes, and they don't need what you are going to create.

Whoever is asking you for an automated machine either does not know how to do research for a product they want, or do not need what they are asking for. Either sell them an existing product with your own mark-up to pay for your time, or tell them that they need to look at the other hobbyist progressive-press automation conversion kits.

Unless you can create something of the scale of the smallest Camdex, with equal quality construction (that bitterroot machine looks too cobbled together and will need far too much experienced adjustment to keep it working correctly over time), AND the ability for the end user to swap calibers, there is not much of a reason for you to pursue the project.

[Bigtls1]

Check out Auto Load Worldwide.

They have a backlog as well. Their price seems much more reasonable than the others you suggested.

[Carcassonne]

Looks like the cycle time for that is about 3.5 seconds. We're looking at less than a second per round.

Also those brass/bullet feeders run about $2-5k each (depending on who's model you choose and speeds).

Does the Dillon also prime? Our machine would...

Again, I'm not looking at the 1-2 man operations. Looking at the markets that need a piece of machine that can run 3 shifts 24/7 for years on end.

Thanks for the info on the system however. Never too much information.

I highly doubt anyone here would need a machine like that. You would have to ask a reloading company what they would need. A small-time family owned reloading business may pay between $30 and $50K for a machine if they could use it for more than 1 caliber, but I doubt they would pay much more. Those machines would only need to run 10 hours a day for 6 days a week. Family businesses usually go home and shut everything down.





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[tiller]

Looks like the cycle time for that is about 3.5 seconds. We're looking at less than a second per round.

Also those brass/bullet feeders run about $2-5k each (depending on who's model you choose and speeds).

Does the Dillon also prime? Our machine would...

Again, I'm not looking at the 1-2 man operations. Looking at the markets that need a piece of machine that can run 3 shifts 24/7 for years on end.

Thanks for the info on the system however. Never too much information.

I dont know where you got that a brass and bullet feeder cost 5k?? You can have both for less than 1k for best ones on the market..

And the only way you could even have a place in the market is if you could create some like a camdex at dillon 1050 prices... Not a lot of people want to drop 50k on a new auto mated machine... Also small reloading companies wont buy a 50k$ machine to have to take it out of service to swap calibers...

Small companies buy the 1050's becuase they can be loading 9mm , 40, 45, and 223 at the same time... You have 1 man cranking Out 5k rounds per hour on 4 machines that are half the price of 1 machine that can only do one caliber and only do 3k per hour...

Just a little food for thought... I know a couple guys that own small reloading businesses, if you want more info just pm me

[Norcalkid]

I dont know where you got that a brass and bullet feeder cost 5k?? You can have both for less than 1k for best ones on the market..

And the only way you could even have a place in the market is if you could create some like a camdex at dillon 1050 prices... Not a lot of people want to drop 50k on a new auto mated machine... Also small reloading companies wont buy a 50k$ machine to have to take it out of service to swap calibers...

Small companies buy the 1050's becuase they can be loading 9mm , 40, 45, and 223 at the same time... You have 1 man cranking Out 5k rounds per hour on 4 machines that are half the price of 1 machine that can only do one caliber and only do 3k per hour...

Just a little food for thought... I know a couple guys that own small reloading businesses, if you want more info just pm me

That makes a lot of sense.

[sl0re10]

Hello gentlemen,

A bit of background. I own a custom automation company out of Florida. We build custom automated machines and robotic workcells. We have been approached several times in the last few months about building a high speed ammo loader.

I'm not near the expert on ammo loading as you all are but I know enough to hold a decent conversation. I'm hoping to get some initial market research from you, the experts...

We've looked into some of themachines out there. Camdex and Bitterroot being the 2 most mentioned. The Camdex looks to be the entry level tabletop machine while the Bitterroot is fully automated and runs close to 80ppm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfxEgFz4Dp0

The Bitterroot machine is more like the style we've been asked to replicate.

Currently the Bitterroot machine is about $215,000 and they have a 2 year backlog of orders! Also they only run one caliber on each machine. Want to run 9mm? $215k. Now want to run .38? That's another $215k etc...

Our concept would have change tooling to allow multiple calibers (within reason) to be run on the same machine.

So my question is, in your opinion is there a market for another full automatic machine like this? Or is the market too small. Obviously the one man garage reloader is not going to be able to afford $200k for a machine. While the big players probably already have enough machinery to support their production. Is there a large enough market in the mid-sized reloading business to support this?

Any insight would be most appreciated.

For $200k; I think your market might be the big guys / ammo makers. I don't know what equipment they use. I do know they always refrain from upping capacity during shortages saying shortages are temporary and won't support paying for "more capacity". On the other hand; I do think they could afford your machine if they were otherwise interested in it. It could pay for itself in one panic / ammo shortage.

But if I picked up a ammo maker FFL (license) tomorrow; I could not afford your machine for a few years and then only if things were taking off.

Anyway; two year wait list says something about the market.

[XDRoX]

Hello gentlemen,

We have been approached several times in the last few months about building a high speed ammo loader.

I think these would be the people that you would sell your machine too...

I'm hoping to get some initial market research from you, the experts...

I don't think we are the "experts" you need for questions like these.

So my question is, in your opinion is there a market for another full automatic machine like this? Or is the market too small. Obviously the one man garage reloader is not going to be able to afford $200k for a machine. While the big players probably already have enough machinery to support their production. Is there a large enough market in the mid-sized reloading business to support this?

Personally I have no idea, sorry.

[Burbur]

You're projected pricepoint is in the "custom - built to order" range and would only ever be considered by the big BIG boys. Most large scale reloaders use Camdex/Ammoload, while everyone else seems to be using 1050s.

As a user of multiple 1050s, I will tell you that even the jump to Camdex/Ammoload is daunting at the $35k pricepoint.

Caliber change in a machine beyond the Dillon 1050 is irrelevant to me. If I am spending upwards of $40k (or $200k ?!?!) on a single machine, it best be running 24/7; I would not voluntarily take it down to change from 9mm to 40sw and have to go through hours and hours of calibration.

PM me when you have a Camdex level machine for under $20k. You would have a lot more potential interest from the Mom-and-Pop+P sized reloaders, like myself. We would buy 6 $35k single caliber machines before 1 $200k multi-cal machine, without question.

Judging by the backlog at the available commercial options, it would seem there is room in the market for another manufacturer in the sub $35k market.