Redding 6.5 creed die causing runout

[bsumoba]

I am getting 0.003"-0.005" runout on a new Redding 6.5 creedmoor FL sizing die and Im trying to figure out what part of the die it is. So here are the details:

Using Hornady brass and for FL resizing them, I am bumping the shoulder only 0.001". After I figured this out, I locked the ring down and start ca-chunking away. I am using One Shot lube and I am making sure I get some inside the neck. I trimmed and then tumbled. Started to prime, charge powder, then when I went to seat the bullets, I used a dial indicator to measure the runout and was all over the place.

Took a virgin piece of brass and only NK sized it using another die in the redding set made for NK sizing only. I lubed the same way, trimmed, tumbled and did all that jazz. Primed, charged powder as normal then went to seat the bullet it in the same seater die set up the same way. BAM...NO runout!

Has anyone experienced this issue? Other guys have mentioned to me it could be my expander ball causing runout. I am lubing the inside of the NK so it leads me to believe that I have an out-of-spec die...but which part?

I know I should have stopped, but I ended up doing 50 rounds and they have varying runout from 0.001" - 0.005". Will this affect accuracy a great deal (these rounds will be used for a LR clinic coming up so I'll be reaching out to 1K)? I have a hornady concentricty gauge that has a feature that can "fix" runout. Should I just fix all of them using this?

Right now, I am investigating this and If I deem it to be the die, I'll send it back to Redding and I will fire form everything and then just neck size. All rounds are going into a bolt gun.

[gau17]

See if you get the same runout w/o the expander ball.

[bsumoba]

See if you get the same runout w/o the expander ball.

If this is the case, could I use the FL sizer without the expander ball, and then use the NK sizer die for the neck only?

[Fjold]

Yep, or use a universal decapping die that doesn't touch the case neck and then size with a Redding S Type bushing die to set the neck diameter.

[gau17]

depending on how much your die is actually sizing the necks. Compare measurements from cases that were sized with and without the ball. If there is not that much difference, then give it a shot. Also compare the differences on the seating force of the bullet.

What most guys do is buy Full length bushing dies. This way you can run w/o the ball and control the neck tension.

Hope this makes sense.

[bsumoba]

depending on how much your die is actually sizing the necks. Compare measurements from cases that were sized with and without the ball. If there is not that much difference, then give it a shot. Also compare the differences on the seating force of the bullet.

What most guys do is buy Full length bushing dies. This way you can run w/o the ball and control the neck tension.

Hope this makes sense.

Makes sense. Thanks for the input. I'll b trying this when I get home.

Now, the big question...what to do with the 50 cases already made. With that much bullet runout, do you think there is going to be a noticeable accuracy degradation? I could "fix" them with the hornady concentricity tool that uses a setscrew to "adjust" the runout.

[gau17]

Just run them thru the sizer again w/o the ball to see it will correct them. That's what's good about having the concentric tool. You can find out what part of our reloading is off.

[bsumoba]

I was thinking about doing this. Thanks! I'll keep everyone posted if this works.

[mark501w]

Try a different lube. Then die set RCBS.

[Wrangler John]

In the days before anyone made bushing dies, guys that wanted to limit run out adjusted the FL die and then backed it off about .010" to allow the die and expander to float. Some used a feeler gauge to set the clearance. The slop was taken into account when setting the case headspace. Sort of poor man's set up.

There are also free floating expander balls for Redding dies:

http://redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28%3Acarbide-size-button-kits

I use these Redding bushing dies for some calibers, especially the Type S Full Length Bushing Die, as some guns/cartridge combos just shoot more consistently when full length sized. This die can also be used as a body bump die:

http://redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118%3Atype-s-bushing-dies

Best results are obtained if the neck thickness is measured and a light neck turning cut uniforms thickness a bit. This is a complete pain in the @$$, and I seldom do it any more if not really, really, necessary.

Another old-timer's trick was to partially seat the bullet, rotate the cartridge halfway around and finish seating. Today's precision competition seater dies usually make this obsolete. Besides, the practice was never proven to do much anyway, but made us all feel we were on to something.

Using the old standard RCBS dies from the 1970's I could get really long 145 grain 7mm bullets seated into 7mm TCU cases with .001" to .0015" of run out which was good enough in a 10" barrel shooting at 200 meters.

[gau17]

Collet dies works too. I had Lee Custom make one one for 6.5 Creedmoor. It gets the necks really straight without needing to lube.

[bigedp51]

The main causes of neck runout when sizing:
1. Uneven case wall and neck thickness.
2. Expander ball locked down off center.

The expander ball when it expands the inside of the neck pushes any irregularities to the outside of the case neck. Meaning if the case necks are not uniform it will increase the runout reading.

A off center expander ball will increase runout and also any dings or damage in the case extractor groove. On the downstroke of the ram the case is being held by the bottom of the cases extractor groove, a damaged rim will cause the case to be tilted and pull the neck off center.

If you have a neck thickness gauge like the one pictured below you can inspect and sort your cases by neck thickness variations.

Below the neck thickness gauge I use, one twist of the case tells you what you need to know.



Using your runout gauge without and with the expander ball will tell you if you are inducing runout with a off center expander ball. A rubber o-ring under the decapping rod lock nut allows the expander ball to float and self center.

Sizing with the expander ball removed and sizing the inside of the necks in a second operation with a expander die reduces runout. Using this method the case rests on its base in the shell holder and the neck is expanded pushing downward, instead of pulling a expander ball through the neck.

With a neck thickness gauge and a runout gauge you can sort out your brass problems and die setup problems, and get smaller runout readings.

Pausing at the top of the ram stroke for three seconds reduces brass springback and runout. Then rotate the case 180 and resize again and pausing, this lets the brass know who is the boss and to "stay put".

And you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear, meaning you can't make bad brass better when it has unequal case wall thicknesses. Cartridge cases like this will expand more on the thin side of the case and cause the case to warp and become banana shaped.

Below a case with unequal case wall thickness will still be off center in the chamber after neck turning and may also be warped.



The brass makes a big difference, I was given three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass our local police used for practice. This cheaper practice ammunition uses cases that are seconds and not fit for use with higher price ammunition. Meaning wide variations in case thickness and other defects.

On a impulse when at our local gun shop I bought a box of Nosler custom .223 brass and was amazed when I go home how consistent and uniform the brass was. Bottom line this Nosler brass was worth the money because these cases did not need sorting or prepping in any way and was extremely good uniform brass.