hypothetical powder question

[hemiguy55]

first off, this is just a what if. i have no intentions of trying this, ever. this is just a thought.

lets say its the end of the world. powder is non existant and you just used up the last of your varget, h322, h335, whatever it is you like for your .223 platform. all you have left is a powder with a higher burn speed, like retumbo or us 869. do you think its plausable to load .223 with a faster powder? maybe in a VERY small grain amount or start VERY small and work it up until you can get it to function? or would it blow up your rifle before it starts to function normally?

[devster55]

Yes not recommended but yes.

[BigBronco]

Ask three finger Pete. He has done it before.

[sargenv]

Um, retumbo and US869 are slower powders not faster.. they are made up for large caliber cartridges.. not the smaller variants like the .223 or even the 308.. usually for things like 30-06 with heavy bullets or larger more spacious calibers.. like the Win, weatherby, Holland and holland magnums.. and of course things like the 50 BMG..

If you are asking about using pistol type powders for the 223 rem.. it's already being done by cast bullet shooters.. there are people who ONLY use Unique and 2400 for all calibers from pistol (38 spl or larger) up to 45-70. They aren't looking for the highest velocity mind you.. but they are looking to only stock one or two powders and use the hell out of those one or two powders..

[Carcassonne]

Some people use Red Dot powder in a 308 Winchester with 100 grain bullets.

[hemiguy55]

Woops. Yea I meant slower burning*

[rsrocket1]

People do use 50 cal and 30mm cannon powders in rifles. Look up duplexing and you will see. Do a deep search because there are lots of different types of duplexing. Recommended for a newb at reloading? Absolutely not. If it were the end of the world, if the zombies don't get you, that load in the hands of a novice will.

[electric7]

Here is my two cents. You can mix whatever will fit in the casings, but not without taking more risk. It all burns.

But, you may be better off crushing zombie skulls with plastic AR15 stocks like they do in walking dead.

[koehn,jim]

I have been casting and loading cast for a long time. I have used many pistol powders in rifles because it works best with cast. Can you do it definetly, but you must start small and work up and check for any sign of pressure, you must be careful. during the recent powder shortage I was able to shoot because I have about 3-4 loads for every weapon using different combinations of powder and primers with different bullet weights. It means a lot of time and trips to the range but I like the challenge. I also collect milsurp weapons from Europe and most of them shoot best with cast instead of jacketed. I also shoot cast in my m1 garand and it works just fine, and no I did not bend the operating rod or foul the gas system.

[LynnJr]

Hemiguy55
The 2 powders you listed burn very slowly and require a very long barrel for best results.
In a 223 you couldn't put enough of either in your cases to cause pressure problems.
It will shoot but the velocity will be much lower.
It will burn dirtier as well due to the lower combustion pressure.
In a nutshell it will produce lower velocity and not much else.

Duplex loads are a blend of two powders generally with similar burning rates to produce a powder in between the two powders that currently doesn't exist.

In loading you want the case as full as is possible while still maintaining best accuracy.If Varget works well but your case is only 50% full and 4350 works well but doesn't give you enough velocity you can develop a duplex load using both powders to give you 85% or more case fill and top velocity.

[hemiguy55]

Wow. I never new that! I thought mixing powders was a sin!

[hemiguy55]

Just so everyone knows, I still have no intention of trying this or mixing powders.

[rsrocket1]

Hemiguy55
Duplex loads are a blend of two powders generally with similar burning rates to produce a powder in between the two powders that currently doesn't exist.

Not quite right in this case. Duplex loads with a slow powder typically means putting a fast powder next to the primer, then stacking the slower powder on top of that with a filler to prevent the mixing. With muzzleloaders, it's easy to to do because the bullet is compressed against the powder. With rifle rounds, the filler is typically Dacron or some other inert substance.

It's pretty safe to load 5 grains of 777 or Pyrodex below a charge of Blackhorn 209 for flintlocks or caplocks, but that's about as far as I would ever go with duplex loads. First of all, I wouldn't be caught without enough powder and if the world was going to end, I doubt I'll be spending my time shopping for 50 BMG powder.

[LynnJr]

Actually it is quite correct.
Duplex loads can be two powders separated two powders mixed or two bullets in one case.

So this doesn't start a war.
In Dec 1957, the Army tested several simplex, duplex, and triplex cartridges in 22 and 30 caliber. The project was known as SALVO II. One of the cartridges was the Cal .30 (30-06) case necked to 22 caliber with a 62 grain bullet. It was fired in a modified M1 rifle.

Now, whether or not this particular rifle was part of SALVO II would be a long shot, at best. But . . .

Here are the cartridges tested. Left to right:

Cal .30 (30-06) Ball M2, Control cartridge
Cal .30 (30-06) Triplex (3 bullets)
Cal .30 (30-06) Duplex (2 bullets)
22-06
Long neck 22-06 Duplex (2 bullets)
12 gauge Flechette (32 darts)
You can look up Salvo II 22-06 in a google search for clarification.
Lynn