.223 Taper crimp & seating help

[Thomas83]

Hey CG,

So I've cleaned, deprimed/FL Sized, trimmed, and primed a few cases. However it's now time to set up my crimp & seating die. I'm using RCBS 5.56 Full length two die set. I've read, re-read, taken a break or two and read the die instructions again and I've run into an issue. Upon seating & crimping the dummy rounds, yes I've gone through a couple trials. At bottom of the shoulder as the shoulder turns into the body, it seems like I'm compressing the case and it's just barely starting to buldge and about to begin folding on itself.

What am I doing wrong? Any tips on the order of set up? I'm thinking I've got the order wrong on something. Here's the order I set up the die:

1: insert empty case.
2: screw die body down until light/medium contact with neck of case.
3: back off body 1 full turn (360*) and tighten lock ring down.
4: insert bullet into case and insert into die.
5: set seating screw to set desired bullet depth & unscrew a couple turns.
6: with round still inserted in die, listen die lock but and screw down until hand tight or desired crimp is set.
7: screw down bullet seater until it touches the tip of the bullet and tighten.
8: insert brass & bullet to make another dummy round as if I'm loading a round.

Guess what? Yup the shoulder buldge a a bit and starts to roll on itself. I'm thinking the crimp is complete before the bullet it completely seated. But how do I fix? Confused? Yea me too, PM me if you'd like with a phone number so you can help me out.

Oh btw, I'm measuring with calipers between each step where necessary.

Sent from my iPhone.

[J-cat]

Sort your brass by headstamp. Trim your cases to the same length. Then set your die. The crimping process is entirely dependent on case length and neck thickness.

Or U might have POS bullets with cannelure a positioned in various places on the bullet shank and the die is crimping prematurely.

Or the bullets don't have cannelures and you are trying to dig the case mouth into the side if the bullet shank. If so, stop it.

[ironhorse1]

First we need to know if the bullet you are using has a cannelure.

If the bullet does not have a cannelure you cannot crimp the case.

Neck tension alone will hold the bullet in place.

If your bullets do have a cannelure then all the cases need to be trimmed to the same length.

Finally it takes very little pressure to seat and/or crimp a bullet in a case.

If your are bulging the shoulder you are applying to much pressure and setting back the shoulder of the case.

Every time I load this round, I have to remind myself, to go easy when seating the bullets.

irh

[Witch Hunter]

Make sure your cases are the same length. I set the crimp first on a dummy round, then ease the seater down until I am happy. It may take few to make it right, you can pull them later. Sounds like you are crimping too much.

[Thomas83]

Roger that. Yes, all cases are trimmed to the same length. The bullets have a cannelure. For the 223 they're 55gr FMJBT W/C and the 22-250 will use those plus Sierra Varminter 45Gr. FBSP.

If the bullets have a cannelure then I've got to go easy on the crimp. I understand that if I can press the bullet into the case with marginal force then the crimp is too light? I guess I could load a couple dummy rounds and cycle them through the weapon. If there's a change in OAL then the crimp is too light?

I've used about 8 dummy rounds trying to set everything up. Np cause I've got plenty of brass, but still frustrating.

I appreciate the help guys!

I've weighed and measured a good majority of the bullets and they all have tight tolerances, all the cases have been sorted & weighed & meticulously cleaned inside & out as well.


If I have any other issues I'll post here again or PM somebody, thanks!


Sent from my iPhone.

[Enfield47]

Have you tried to seat without crimping? I reload for an AR and don't crimp, haven't had any issues.

[Neanderthal]

A picture would help.

[Bastard]

does your press cam over?

[wxl]

I had the same problem with the RCBS 2 die set and I just stopped crimping. Haven't crimped any 223 for 25 years with any issues. I just screw the die down until it contacts the case and then back off 2 turns. I then seat the bullet to the desired depth and lock everything down.

[Bastard]

oh yeah - crimping as a separate step solves the problem

[bigedp51]

"ALWAYS" seat the bullet in one operation and then go back and crimp. This prevents distorted case necks and compressing the shoulder of the case.

Your .223/5.56 dies have a taper crimp and the ball expander is .001 smaller than bullet diameter and a light taper crimp will not hurt anything.

If you want to do away with crimping operation then reduce the diameter of your expander button .001 to .002 for more neck tension. This will also improve neck runout and not pull on and distort the case necks during sizing.

I have two AR15s and a bolt action Savage .223 and many sizing options.

Below the black RCBS .223/5.56 box is taper crimp, the green RCBS .223 box is a roll crimp.



On short carbine barrels a crimp or more neck tension helps the boiler room build up more steam pressure with slower burning powders.

[Thomas83]

Have you tried to seat without crimping? I reload for an AR and don't crimp, haven't had any issues.

Technically yes, but only adjusting for the seat depth but I haven't loaded any live rounds yet, just started setting up the dies this afternoon. Been loading pistol for several years now. But just starting on rifle. I'm guessing it's the same concept as pistol crimping & seating, but it's been a while since I've dealt with it.

A picture would help.

I'll try to get one. I was thinking of that when I posted the question. I'll try to get a pic however I'm using a buddy's press and he's a 30 min drive one way into the mountains. Lemme see what I can do. Might ask him to snap a pic and send it to me so I can post it.

does your press cam over?

Not sure what that means. I've got a vague idea I think. It's an OLDER Lee press mounted on a tool box. When the case is fully inserted in the die the handle stops moving. When it stops it's touching the toolbox. There's no room for extra movement, just enough for full extension. It's can't keep rotating into a locking position even if it tried.



Sent from my iPhone.

[Thomas83]

"ALWAYS" seat the bullet in one operation and then go back and crimp. This prevents distorted case necks and compressing the shoulder of the case.

Your .223/5.56 dies have a taper crimp and the ball expander is .001 smaller than bullet diameter and a light taper crimp will not hurt anything.

If you want to do away with crimping operation then reduce the diameter of your expander button .001 to .002 for more neck tension. This will also improve neck runout and not pull on and distort the case necks during sizing.

I have two AR15s and a bolt action Savage .223 and many sizing options.

Below the black RCBS .223/5.56 box is taper crimp, the green RCBS .223 box is a roll crimp.



On short carbine barrels a crimp or more neck tension helps the boiler room build up more steam pressure with slower burning powders.

Roger that, and yes, I have the black box.


Sent from my iPhone.

[Bastard]

my interpretation of cam over is where the ram will actually start to travel back down when the lever has reached the end of its travel, which I don't see as a problem unless you don't know about it. I can see someone setting a die with the handle down thinking that it is at the top of the stoke when in fact it is not & will run back slightly into the die when raising the handle...

if you have already crimped and run back in to the die it could result in crushing the neck - though that would usually mean that you have too much crimp as well.

I think that I have some dummy rounds laying around somewhere that have had this happen, I will try to find & post a picture so that you can compare sorry for the slightly blurry pics, but you can get the general idea.

[hundy]

Dont know if this helps

Hi, this may swerve of the path of this thread, but just trying to help. I just reloaded 50 223 yesterday with RCBS taper crimp dies (AR Series). I plan on doing 50 more today. (hopefully honey do list comes first)
I had some difficulty in when I first started, some would chamber great others would not. I was using a case gauge and trimming them by hand.
As mentioned several times on this thread, the cases need to be trimmed to the same length.
I bought the WFT (Worlds Finest Trimmer) by little crow gunworks. I ordered it off midwayusa.
This piece fits on a drill and once its set it trims all the cases to the same length.
I used it yesterday, after reloading I chambered several of the completed rounds and they all chambered perfectly, no problems like before.
I don't work for or represent the product, just trying to give advice that may help. There is a thread on this board about the product.

Good luck

Jay