velocity question on .223

[CWDraco]

At what distance would a 55gr-60gr .223 projectiles velocity be at about 1200fps?

I understand twist and barrel length play a major role in this, but generally speaking where would this occur?

Back story on this question for those wishing to add addition comments-

I am in a debate over the 60gr .22lr lethality at close range. I feel multiple hits at under 30 feet with this ammo will produce the same lethal wound as a .223/5.56 at 250 yards. In fact I think the speed in-which a person could pull the trigger and the light recoil would likely produce a group size equal to the fragmentation of a 308, just not its penetrating energy.

The guy I am debating is saying the 1200-14000 fps velocity of the 60gr .22lr might be the same as a .223, but that occurs at 600+ yards. He says neither round would produce a lethal wound at those speeds and size.

I can only find technical info, no personal experience from guys who play with ballistics.

[BrianRodela]

Usually .22LR are 40 gn bullets unless its a specific mfr but theirs is nowhere near that velocity, more like 950 fps. Regardless of the speed of the round, it's lethality Is dependant on a variety of factors including health of victim and shot placement. Hell, a .177 caliber pellet can still hit an artery. As far as similar velocities, for the 62 gn bullet, sure around 600 would be close but keep in mind, knockdown power and lethality are two different things. At 250 to 300 yards, not even a fair contest, the 223 is still in the mid 2000's.
that being said, there was a reason why the .22LR was used by the CIA for quite a while to take out the trash so to speak so to question it's ability to do the job at 30 feet would be unwise.

[Germz]

Back story on this question for those wishing to add addition comments-

I am in a debate over the 60gr .22lr lethality at close range. I feel multiple hits at under 30 feet with this ammo will produce the same lethal wound as a .223/5.56 at 250 yards.

shoot someone in the T box at 30 feet with a 22lr and they're going to die. 22lr. has been proven lethal out to 450 yards.

I think you're getting more at the "stopping power" in which case the .223 obviously trumps the .22lr

[mark501w]

Are there any 60gr . 22LR ?

[highpower790]

on the highpower range its common for 55s to keyhole in a target at 600yds.so im guessing that 450yds they start going subsonic.

[BrianRodela]

Are there any 60gr . 22LR ?

Aguilla makes a lower velocity 60gn that runs around 950 fps.

[Fjold]

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Enter your bullet, the initial velocity, the maximum range, etc., and it will give you the velocity, trajectory and energy for the increments that you select out to your maximum range.

[rick.benjamin]

At what distance would a 62gr .224 M855 projectile velocity be at about 1200fps?
750 yards

In Oregon, Bullet needs to impart 900 ft-lbs energy to be legal to hunt deer.
You might want to consider foot-pounds energy as well as feet-per-second.

You will need to know the ballistic co-efficient.
To use http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
for the M855 62gr
http://www.brownells.com/ammunition/rifle-ammo/winchester-ammo-5-56x45-nato-62gr-m855-penetrator-fmj-prod55032.aspx
for a .22 rimfire 40gr

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/22rimfire.cfm

[CWDraco]

Thank you guys. Looks like he was "more" correct then I was. While the 60gr .22lr will be lethal, it doesnt have the velocity I thought it did.

I think he was a bit wrong too when he said the 5.56 isn't lethal at 1200 fps, it's just a lot less lethal.

[GeoffLinder]

It depends on the bullet type, initial velocity and ballistic coefficient (BC).

A flat base 55gr will peter out very early, maybe under 400 yards. A boat tail type can stay supersonic until a little past 600 yards IF it is moving 3150fps or better to start with and it's BC is fairly decent. But, it will not have very much in the way of energy left at under 2000-2200 fps.

Move that same 55gr out at under 3100fps to start and it will become a real loser at 600. The basic truth is that any .223 projectile under about 70 grains is just about equal out to about 600 yards. Velocity will vary this a little, but not that much.

Here is a ballistic chart showing what a 55gr FMJBT moving out at 3150 fps will be doing out to 600 yards. The chart I posted shows you comparisons of 55gr, 69gr and 77gr.

[CWDraco]

So think about a 124gr 9mm out of a 4 inch pistol vs 2 to 4 rounds of 40gr .22lr from a 16 inch rifle. That should be about equal, right for HD/SD purpose.

Just for the record, I use an AK, or 12ga for HD/SD and I have a 9mm, and 357 as back up.

[Coyotegunner]

Fjold provided the resource for the argument and rick.benjamin touched on a important point.ENERGY.Check one of the manufs websites for 22.I think you will find most of them are sub 200 ft/lbs at even 25 yrds.
Speaking from a little experience shooting varmints.I will say 600 yds is beyond what I have had to shoot say a coyote at.
I have shot several with a 22LR over the years and used a 22mag for close to 41 years for pelts.The 22 LR works fine to around 125yds,and the 22 mag is fine to about 175yds.Both using good bullets made for animals.Rarely a messy exit hole at 50yds and beyond.Most of the time no hole on the back side at that distance
The 223 on the other hand still makes a pretty messy large exit hole using 40 gr bullets at 400yds.Must have hit a bone.Oooh
Well you were looking for close range.What if the close target has multiple layers over its skin.Maybe you hit a elbow.The 22 is done.223 well,it is just starting.
Good luck with all the ballistic charts.I say check it yourself when done on a coyote carcass or something.I have.

[CWDraco]

Fjold provided the resource for the argument and rick.benjamin touched on a important point.ENERGY.Check one of the manufs websites for 22.I think you will find most of them are sub 200 ft/lbs at even 25 yrds.
Speaking from a little experience shooting varmints.I will say 600 yds is beyond what I have had to shoot say a coyote at.
I have shot several with a 22LR over the years and used a 22mag for close to 41 years for pelts.The 22 LR works fine to around 125yds,and the 22 mag is fine to about 175yds.Both using good bullets made for animals.Rarely a messy exit hole at 50yds and beyond.Most of the time no hole on the back side at that distance
The 223 on the other hand still makes a pretty messy large exit hole using 40 gr bullets at 400yds.Must have hit a bone.Oooh
Well you were looking for close range.What if the close target has multiple layers over its skin.Maybe you hit a elbow.The 22 is done.223 well,it is just starting.
Good luck with all the ballistic charts.I say check it yourself when done on a coyote carcass or something.I have.

I am checking the provided links. The problem is I read conflicting data and I know charts, graphs and computer generated figures don't tell the real story. That was the reason I am posting this on the re-loaders forum board and not general gun topics. I know you don't re-load .22lr, but I do know you guys experiment with a lot of rounds.

I have shot beef / pork ribs packed in clothing inside an old leather jacket at combat ranges. The outcome was completely different then what a person would expect from reading data, that's why I was asking here. (for personal experiences like yours). In that "test", it was proved to me I was very wrong to say the 7.62x39 produced a greater wound then the 5.56x45. I was basing my belief on chart data. If you look at all the ballistics data it suggests the 5.56x45 is under powered.

You see people point the data and say the AK is a man killer and the AR15 isn't up to the job, I was once one of those people. Its common to hear "its designed to wound not kill", look I'll shoot this brick, it can't break a brick in half in one shot like the AK can, you read and hear all this BS which supports the belief the 5.56 isn't a good man stopper, even FBI gel tests, yet when actual meat constructed targets are used the results show the 5.56 is equal to or even better then the 7.62.

I like the fact you wrote of your experiences, that's what I am looking for. I would like you to post more of them especially on larger game. That's what I am now looking for.

I was wrong on the fps / energy, but still maintain the .22lr will produce lethal wounds at close range when fired from a 16 inch carbine.

I don't think it should be a persons first choice at all, but it is better then a larger firearm if the person isn't capable to wield that larger firearm. I am under the impression my young daughter could defend herself better with a 10/22 then a 12ga due to the fact she couldn't produce accurate aimed fire with that 12ga. The weight and bulk of the 12ga (or my AKs) would hinder her ability to defend herself past 1 or 2 shots. With a smaller 10/22 (or my Walther HK MP5 which is what started this debate ) she could take on multiple attackers at close range, such as people attempting forced entry into a house from multiple directions.

[sargenv]

If the person is of a smaller frame size, look into the lower recoil tactical buckshot/slug loads or increase the weight of the firearm in question which will also reduce recoil..