.45 ACP +P Reloading

[chango17]

Hey Fellas,

Ive been reloading for only about a year and am learning as i go and trying new things to expand my knowledge of the art.Any how, I got a K of O.F. .45 brass and went through it and found about 20 pieces of the nickel plated brass that has the +P headstamp and was hoping to use them to load up some Barnes TAC-XP 185 grainers for a buddy of mine so he can use his .45 as a side arm for hunting since we live in the Non-Lead hunting area. However, my loading manuals don't have anything about +P loads.

The casings seem to look a little bit thicker, maybe to hold pressures better, and the Flash hole looks to have be larger also. How would I go about finding a load for these with +P cases? Would I load regular loads and expect the 21000-23000psi and 1000+ FPS velocity or are there special loads i should be looking for?

[JagerDog]

There are +P loads. And yes +P brass is thicker in the web area in .45 ACP. However, I've never seen +p brass required by those loads listed as +p.

[M27]

Special load data is not needed

no one said you can't go over max book load, it is just not recommended by the layers of who ever is writing the book. And at some point you will damage your pistol.

First step to getting fast loads is to use a powder that can provide those speeds. I would recommend power pistol or longshot.

Then work up your load as normal, it is best be in the pistol that the loads are being made for. One pistol may react to the hot loads differently than another and if you are making supper hot loads for a specific pistol they need to stay with that pistol.

if you get to max book load and still want to go hotter than know you can go a little hotter.

[M27]

O and I forgot to say

Make sure his pistol is +p rated.

and ask Bill Steele, he has experience loading over max load 10mm and can probably offer some good advice.

[Bill Steele]

As M27 said, I do load a few calibers above book maximum. I will give you my opinions on this stuff, but it is just an opinion from a guy with too many cigars and too many guns, too...

I don't think loading above book maximum is something most people should do. If you have a chrony, a machinist grade micrometer and you can read it in tenths, are willing to read a lot about the history of the caliber you are loading and understand how it evolved, what its strengths and weakness are with regard to loading it to modern pressures, have reasonable amount of mechanical knowledge and are willing to apply it to practical strength of materials problems, then working loads above book can be done safely. Otherwise, probably best to stick to book loads from bullet and powder manufacturers.

On +P, there are calibers with valid +P SAAMI designations. I think .45ACP is one of them. I believe SAAMI uses 10% as the normal +P pressures increase over the non +P designation. Anything above +P (like +P+) is not a SAAMI loading and is above all SAAMI pressures.

When you see +P+ ammo and realize the manufacturer is willing to risk getting sued to sell such ammo, you start to get a feel for the margin for error built into these calibers when used in modern guns.

I can't remember seeing an actual published +P .45 ACP load. Obviously, Federal et al, who produce +P 45 ACP ammo have the required test equipment to verify the ammo is not more than 10% above their normal pressure 45 ACP loads, so that completes the .45ACP +P ammo loop. Read the guns user manual, determine it is +P approved and away you go.

Unfortunately, you don't have a test barrel (you don't right?), so you are not going to be knowing where your rounds are as it relates to pressure. There are crude methods (which I use always) to help triangulate where I am pressure wise, but make no mistake, the methods are not fool proof and require a great deal of diligence and skepticism to stay safe (most importantly when things are going as you hoped).

For instance, some guys will tell you flat primers are the first sign of pressure. Sometimes that is true, sometimes primers tell you nothing, especially on straight walled pistol loads. People with a lot of experience will tell you case bulging, extractor rash, when things quit getting faster on the chrony, all are signs of pressure limits. I agree they are all potential signs and taken together can tell you a lot, but only if you are looking at each and every case in every possible aspect, going up in .1-.2gr increments (reliably measured) and extremely circumspect every step of the way, otherwise you are playing with fire, literally.

Back to +P 45 ACP. The good news with 45 ACP is it has an enormous margin for error when loading it for use in modern guns. So if you wanted to experiment above normal 45ACP max book, you likely are not going to hurt anything if you heeded everything I wrote above.

As I am sure you know, it doesn't take an additional 10% of powder to get an additional 10% of pressure (the relationship is not linear), so if you wanted to load at say 105% of the maximum book 45ACP load by powder weight, in your +P cases, you would likely be obtaining close to +P maximum pressures.

Here is why I would probably not do it. First, a 10% increase in pressure is not going to result in a 10% increase in velocity. If you were using the exact best powder for the bullet, you might be getting 7-8% more velocity with your +P increase in pressure. Likely, the powder you will pick won't be the very best you could use for the exact bullet you have on hand, so you won't even be getting the 7-8%, call it 5% nominal increase in velocity for a lot of extra work.

If you do decide to work up some loads, get a chrony. It is one of the most valuable pieces of information you will get when working loads up. As you are working up, even if everything looks fine, if velocities start to flatten out (not increase in steady increments as you add powder), stop.

Oh, and use real safety glasses (like they are going to help if things actually do go south in a grand manner) and get some spectra gloves, because if you do break a frame, they are pretty good at keeping the inevitable blood blisters for being too bad.

Have I talked you out of it yet?

Good luck, have fun.

[Bill Steele]

Another aside, if you want something more than what 45ACP offers for hunting, look into 45 Super.

Most modern 45 ACP guns can safely shoot 45 Super loads with a change of a recoil spring. 45 Super is a pretty big upgrade in ME, might be worth a look. You can buy 45 Super from Underwood (although not all copper, those you will have to load yourself, but Hodgdon publishes 45 Super loads, albeit very mild ones, but still an upgrade). You can buy 45 Super brass (a must if you load it) from Starline.

[Che762x39]

185 grainers for a buddy of mine so he can use his .45 as a side arm for hunting

The only caliber that +P makes sense in is .38 Special.

The .45 ACP is going to be used for coupe de grace shots on down animals? And/or creepy two legged preditors who hang out in hunting areas?

[M27]

What are you hunting that a standard 45 won't finish off?

[chango17]

Thanks guys for all the help

Thanks for all the info Steele ... its going to be hard to talk me out of it, I'm naturaly curious and once I start something I like to finish. I still am curious as to the charges I would use for reloading in +P Brass with the larger flashole. Will it make a huge difference between a regular case and the +P case with the same charge because of the flashholes

[Bill Steele]

Thanks guys for all the help

Thanks for all the info Steele ... its going to be hard to talk me out of it, I'm naturaly curious and once I start something I like to finish. I still am curious as to the charges I would use for reloading in +P Brass with the larger flashole. Will it make a huge difference between a regular case and the +P case with the same charge because of the flashholes

The flash hole difference is likely a coincidence as the difference in charge weight between a normal non +P and +P round is slight and the powders used in any case are quite fast as pistol powders go and very easy to ignite.

The flash hole won't make any measurable difference in any case, regardless of the powder you use or how much.

Good luck, take your time and be observant of what is going on.

[JagerDog]

I do have some published (Hodgdon) 45+p data.

185gr bullet

HS6/10.0/1162/19.9kcup

HP38/6.6/1143/19.5 kcup

Note these are not Barnes, but no bullet is specified.

[Bill Steele]

I do have some published (Hodgdon) 45+p data.

185gr bullet

HS6/10.0/1162/19.9kcup

HP38/6.6/1143/19.5 kcup

Note these are not Barnes, but no bullet is specified.

Interesting, that is more HS-6 than they spec for their 45 Super load in 185gr jacketed. The HP 38 very similar to their 45 Super load. The velocities look like about 80-90fps higher than similar 45 Super loads from them. One of them is wrong.

[JagerDog]

Interesting, that is more HS-6 than they spec for their 45 Super load in 185gr jacketed. The HP 38 very similar to their 45 Super load. The velocities look like about 80-90fps higher than similar 45 Super loads from them. One of them is wrong.

0.1 grain in what I assume is a slightly roomier case with basically same (19.5k vs. 19.9k) pressure listed. Velocity might be generous, but I dont see anything "wrong".

Just reporting what I have in hand (and is published).

I'd stick to +p rated cases. They are heavier duty per Starline. In some calibers it's just a headstamp difference.

[Bill Steele]

0.1 grain in what I assume is a slightly roomier case with basically same (19.5k vs. 19.9k) pressure listed. Velocity might be generous, but I dont see anything "wrong".

Just reporting what I have in hand (and is published).

I'd stick to +p rated cases. They are heavier duty per Starline. In some calibers it's just a headstamp difference.

Not saying you are wrong, I am saying one of their velocities is wrong. I don't load 185gr slugs in 45 Super, so I have no clue which one is wrong.

Thinking more about it, I would not be surprised at all if the +P numbers you posted are the right velocity and the Hodgdon 45 Super numbers are wrong. I load my 230gr jacketed Super loads to 1100 fps and I am not pushing the envelope much at all (with Longshot, similar results to HS6, just louder and cleaner).

Maybe they tested their 45 Super loads with that punk batch of HS6 that was floating around for a while. It did make a pretty big difference.

[JagerDog]

I did notice that both sets of data are in CUP. That would imply neither is very recent. I know my 45+p data isnt. It came from one of those consolidated by caliber "pamphlets" by Loadbooks. I prolly picked it up a dozen or so years ago. But it is Hodgdon data.