Reload recipe, does powder make a difference?

[LTC-J]

No topic

[klewan]

Reloading manual and a chronograph to measure bullet speeds. Get a 230 grain jacketed bullet and go for it. Probably going to be tough to find all the components at this point in time.

[Bill Steele]

I'm just getting into reloading and I am looking at making practice rounds to duplicate the handling characteristics my defensive round. I'm assuming ammo manufacturers don't make their recipes publicly available.

So the generic question is if I can make a round that duplicates the velocity of my defensive round, does the type of powder, amount of powder, or overall length matter?

FWIW, I am looking at a 230 grain Speer Gold Dot 45acp(non-P+) out of a Glock 30. I want to make "cheaper" FMJ practice rounds to duplicate feel.

For the most part, the larger ammo manufacturers have powders that are not available to you or I over the counter. So no, if you are shooting a Federal HST, you can't make the same exact load.

On the other hand, you can get very close to duplicating a factory HP load with less expensive FMJ and readily available components (well usually readily available).

As strange as this next statement may sound to the more educated, two different powders that deliver similar ballistics can have very differntt recoil feel. So it may takes some trial and error (the fun part) to get a load that duplicates your exact ballistics as well as feel.

A good place to start is compare loads online with Hodgdon and Alliant with the published velocities of your ammo. This is a start. To get really exacting you will need to buy a chronograph.

Good luck, have fun.

[GUNNTZ]

The burn rate of all powders is different. If you have the lyman reloading manual, there's a index in the back the shows fastest to slowest. While the ballistics can be similar, they all operate different.

[G-Man WC]

This may help.
-g

http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

[Bill Steele]

...If I recall right, powders are somewhat classified by their burn rate. Is there a method to identify a factory load's powder as fast or slow?

There is no way to know what the burn rate is for a given factory rounds powder, but you can assume some things. For any given caliber and bullet a given burn rate will deliver a certain velocity at max pressure in a given barrel. It isn't exactly this simple, but you get the idea. For instance, if you are loading a powder like Unique, you won't get a really snappy feel until you are near or over the line pressure wise, where another powder in a similar burn rate category may feel very snappy and still be under max pressure.

What that means is for a given factory round, you can get really close with a number of powders, then try them or rely on guys on this fourm for feedback and you can probably get pretty close.

For a starting place, you might try some Bullseye with some 230gr FMJ's (or plated like Berry's or Xtreme). Use Alliant's load data and start 10% below what they list for Bullseye and those bullets. You likely will not get the same exact velocity as your factory GD's, even at Alliant's max, but it will feel pretty snappy, just like factory loads.

To get a lot closer (making POI's close, etc.) will require a fair amount of trail and error, a chronograph, etc.

[Swagman00]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the cost and volume of powder can come at the expense of safety.

How so you may ask? In general, larger quantities of slower powders are needed to obtain the velocities of certain weights of bullets and calibers compared to faster powders. The benefits on reloading with said powder is that you fill the case volume to better prevent a double charge, and the pressure spike on ignition will also be slower reducing the chance of a barrel detonation when close to maximum charges. The largest downside is muzzle flash and incomplete combustion along with spending more to load each round.

Load data will also show smaller quantities of faster burning powder in calibers can be used to propel a bullet to the ideal speed. You will spend less to charge each round saving money in the process. Another benefit is reduced muzzle flash and a complete burn compared to using a slower powder that that may only provide an incomplete combustion and powder can be wasted. The largest downfall though is you may not see an accidental overcharge and the pressure spike will be MUCH higher on ignition way past SAAMI standards. Best case scenario is the barrel holds together and you stop after the first round (and your gun is still in one piece). More kabooms have happened with this route then any other.

All of this information is relative and shouldn't be taken as fact. Some powders can vary + or - in bulk and burn rate like Trail Boss for example. That stuff ignites quick and will fill a case easily. This is more like a guideline and you'll be fine when you stick to the factory provided load data. If you don't feel safe with a certain powder, there's nothing wrong with going a step down to a slower powder as published.

[klewan]

OP, if you do find the components, mix some of the Speer ammo with your reloads in the same magazine. Shoot them and see if you can tell any difference in the feel. Having somebody else load the mag would be even better, then you can call out which round, if you can.

[J-cat]

With the .45 ACP, you can duplicate factory recoil with a number of powders, but why?

Load the most accurate round that works your gun reliably. In a shooting you will not see much, hear, or feel the recoil. Muscle memory, training, and instinct will take over.

[GeoffLinder]

I'm with Bill here on both his posts. Just duplicating velocity will not duplicate recoil impulse feel.

Neither will duping velocity and bullet weight deliver ammo that shoots to same point of aim as the factory fodder in all cases.

OAL may be more important to functioning than to anything else all other factors (like velocity and bullet weight) being the same.

Experimentation is needed, this is a lot of what reloading is about.

[Spanky8601]

Here you go OP. Visit this web and look at all the different powders and weights for the specific calibers. Most powder companies have the same. http://www.imrpowder.com/basic-manual-inquiry.htm

[J-cat]

What you want is a shortcut. In handloading, shortcuts are not safe. You don't want to work up a load. You should not handload.

[J-cat]

Factory 45 ACP premium defensive rounds are loaded with medium burning rate flash supressed powders. If you want the same velocity you can work up a load with Unique, N340, Silhouette, AA#5, etc.

I would just use Bullseye. It's not a medium rate powder, but it simulates factory velocity and recoil well. Best of all it is very accurate and time tested.

[Fishslayer]

If I recall right, powders are somewhat classified by their burn rate. Is there a method to identify a factory load's powder as fast or slow?

Burn rate charts. There are several online and a powder's burn rate relative to other powders will also vary depending on whose chart you are looking at.

Some powders also might be more consistent at lower pressures and some might be more touchy/spikey approaching maximums.

When I read a question like "Does powder make a difference?" I get a little uncomfortable... be careful out there.

[GeoffLinder]

Bill, good info and thank you for your time.

GeoffLinder, good point. OOL is also going to be important... but I think the number that could be duplicated is based on the "bottom" of the bullet. If the Speer Gold Dot and the bullet I'm using to train with have similar "bottom" shapes, I can make sure the inner volume will be the same.



Why? Part of getting muscle memory is getting the memory of the recoil and "back on site" memory going.

As for loading the "most accurate round", it costs money to get accuracy. If I'm making a round that is more accurate than my defensive round, I am not gaining any advantage from that extra expense. Powders can have applied coatings that change burn characteristics.

My goal for reloading is to create a training round that is as close to my defense round as possible in terms of "feel" and accuracy while maintaining a reasonable cost.

Your goal is reasonable and not unachievable. But, there is no such thing as a fixed recipe that duplicates commercial ammo in velocity and recoil impulse in YOUR gun.

You will need to experiment with various powders and find what does the job. This is all part of the fun and learning process involved in reloading. My guess is that a fairly fast powder will do the job for you, as to which one, only testing will tell you that.

WW231 would be a good start point as would Unique or Titegroup.

Bill said it best in his two posts and again, I completely agree with him on this. Assuming same jacketed bullet weight (not type), velocity will not control type of felt recoil impulse, powder burn rate versus charge volume will. OAL will have an effect on velocity given same charge weight, but will have little to no effect on powder burn rate unless the OAL variance is huge.

Visual analysis of powder type will not necessarily tell you if it's fast or slow. Yes, ball powders are generally fast, but not always true in comparison. There is fast ball powder and there is "faster" ball powder. Ball powders can have coatings that effect burn rate. Visual inspection will not determine this.