OAL Variation on 650

[bearstatearmory.com]

I've been reloadin .223 on my 650 with good results, everything is working as it should be.

I've started reloading 40 S&W on my 650 with Dillon dies and am not happy with my results in OAL. If I run my press with one round at a time my OAL is within a couple thousands of where it should be (usually right on) but if I run it progressive style I'm getting variations in the hundredths (sp?) 1.133 - 1.151 but like I mentioned if I do them one at a time I am getting damn close to 1.125. I'm wondering if the shell holder plate is tweaking too much from the tension that is being put on there by my re-sizing die or maybe something else? I do have the WHOLE case (up to the shell plate) going up there so the case isn't tapered like a pyramid. Any advise is appreciated.

[joelogic]

Is the bullet seating plug turned the right way?
Does the shell plate tilt?

Some people say a properly setup machine doesn't need the thrust bearing mod but I really like it. I can get nearly zero plate tilt and my rounds are within thousandths.

[Diabolus]

That is some serious variation. I'd get maybe a couple thousandths reloading 9mm, but never in the hundredths.

It could be a number of things.

Are any of the dies making contact with the shell holder plate? (I think your re-sizing die is making too much contact)
Are the dies screwed in all the way?
What kind of bullets? Correct seating end being used?
Does your handle make the full movement to the down position?

[bearstatearmory.com]

Is the bullet seating plug turned the right way?
Does the shell plate tilt?

Some people say a properly setup machine doesn't need the thrust bearing mod but I really like it. I can get nearly zero plate tilt and my rounds are within thousandths.

I'm going to go try to measure whether the plate is tilting or not, yes the plug is turned the correct way.

That is some serious variation. I'd get maybe a couple thousandths reloading 9mm, but never in the hundredths.

It could be a number of things.

Are any of the dies making contact with the shell holder plate? (I think your re-sizing die is making too much contact)
Are the dies screwed in all the way?
What kind of bullets? Correct seating end being used?
Does your handle make the full movement to the down position?

The dies are not making contact with the shell holder plate, I'm not sure what you're asking by screwed in all the way (they are tight in the tool head) but now screwed down all the way, I'm using Berry's 155 fp bullets right now.

[Bill Steele]

My recommendation would be to take this thread to Brian Enos forums, or even better, just call Dillon. Someone has seen this before.

[ar15barrels]

The variation is in the bullets.
Measure a bunch of them from the point the die contacts while seating to the tip and you will see...

[bearstatearmory.com]

The variation is in the bullets.
Measure a bunch of them from the point the die contacts while seating to the tip and you will see...

I took 10 loose projectiles and measured them and came up with a max spread of .005

I measured 10 pieces of ammo and measured them after I reloaded them the other night and came up with the following OAL and measurment from the top of the case to the tip of the projectile. This ammo was manufactured on my press in the full progressive capacity:

1) 1.158 - .318
2) 1.156 - .310
3) 1.134 - .280
4) 1.158 - .316
5) 1.137 - .288
6) 1.154 - .310
7) 1.156 - .313
8) 1.157 - .318
9) 1.132 - .289
10) 1.132 - .287

This second set of numbers is after I ran the ammo through the bullet seater die again in a single stage configuration.

1) 1.149 - .311
2) 1.149 - .302
3) 1.126 - .282
4) 1.150 - .306
5) 1.126 - .283
6) 1.146 - .303
7) 1.151 - .307
8) 1.149 - .310
9) 1.124 - .285
10) 1.125 - .282

So basically I have 2 seperate OAL's (well call them batch's for now even though they were both run at the exact same time, same bullet and same bucket of once fired brass). Each batch is within .003 (which in my book is a normal acceptable variation of OAL). I just can't figure out why I have one "batch" at 1.149 and one at 1.125

[bearstatearmory.com]

This is how I measured the point from where the tip of the bullet case to the tip of the bullet

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[morrow]

Loosen both the seating plug and the die a little.
Make sure ALL stations are loaded with brass.
Pull handle down to raise the ram all the way up.
Now with all stations filled and brass+bullet in the seater, lock the die and seating plug down.
You now have a properly centered die on a progressive press.

----Most people don't bother locking down their dies with brass/bullet in them, let alone making sure all stations are loaded before doing so on a progressive.

Sounds like that's the problem to me.

[bearstatearmory.com]

Loosen both the seating plug and the die a little.
Make sure ALL stations are loaded with brass.
Pull handle down to raise the ram all the way up.
Now with all stations filled and brass+bullet in the seater, lock the die and seating plug down.You now have a properly centered die on a progressive press.

----Most people don't bother locking down their dies with brass/bullet in them, let alone making sure all stations are loaded before doing so on a progressive.

Sounds like that's the problem to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? I did not set my dies this way, I did them one at a time.

[morrow]

I'm not sure what you mean by this? I did not set my dies this way, I did them one at a time.

When you lock down a die on a progressive press like the 650 with a floating tool head you need to make sure all stations with dies have brass in them before locking them down. That way the floating tool head is centered, let alone other parts of the press.

If you lock dies down 1 at a time, say you setup and lock down the seater die by itself with all other stations empty, once you are running in progressive mode the brass in the sizing or powder station might 'pull' the tool head over a few thousandts, or the shell plate, etc, and then the brass+bullet going into the seater is no longer centered.

The way to do this is before locking down a die in a press, is to make sure all stations have brass in them and are performing their operation when you lock it down.

So again, do instructions above. Loosen your seating die and seater plug in the die a little. Make sure all stations are loaded ready to go (bullet on a piece of brass to go into the seater especially), raise the ram, lock it down. It is now centered. If you need to seat the bullet a little deeper after that ONLY loosen the seating stem, not the entire die, or else you will have to re-center the die.

If doing this does not solve your problem you either have variations in the bullets themselves, or wrong seater plug, or debris in your seater die.

[Horton Fenty]

1) Make sure your sizing die is adjusted into the shell plate. So when the ram is up all the slack is taken out of the toolhead. Dillon says this is not a problem with their carbide dies.
2) Make and check any adjustment with a full shell plate. It's a progressive, it's meant to be fully loaded. Optionally at least make/check any adjustment with a shell in the sizing station. I have found OAL will come out different with or without a shell in the sizing station.
3) Always lock down each die with a shell in holder so things stay centered.

[ar15barrels]

So basically I have 2 seperate OAL's (well call them batch's for now even though they were both run at the exact same time, same bullet and same bucket of once fired brass). Each batch is within .003 (which in my book is a normal acceptable variation of OAL). I just can't figure out why I have one "batch" at 1.149 and one at 1.125

Sounds like two different bullets.
I bet the shape of the tips is different on the two different batches.

Production bullet casting machines use a bunch of molds.
If one or two molds are a little different, you end up with bullets being different.

My friends casting machine has 8 molds in it.
Every few years, we have to surface grind a could thousandths off the bottoms of the molds to get rid of damage between the molds and sprue plates.
Who is to say that someone else had to do this on their molds too, but the grinding was not the same on every mold?
Maybe they replaced one mold because one got damaged and the new mold is not the same as the old ones...

[bearstatearmory.com]

When you lock down a die on a progressive press like the 650 with a floating tool head you need to make sure all stations with dies have brass in them before locking them down. That way the floating tool head is centered, let alone other parts of the press.

If you lock dies down 1 at a time, say you setup and lock down the seater die by itself with all other stations empty, once you are running in progressive mode the brass in the sizing or powder station might 'pull' the tool head over a few thousandts, or the shell plate, etc, and then the brass+bullet going into the seater is no longer centered.

The way to do this is before locking down a die in a press, is to make sure all stations have brass in them and are performing their operation when you lock it down.

So again, do instructions above. Loosen your seating die and seater plug in the die a little. Make sure all stations are loaded ready to go (bullet on a piece of brass to go into the seater especially), raise the ram, lock it down. It is now centered. If you need to seat the bullet a little deeper after that ONLY loosen the seating stem, not the entire die, or else you will have to re-center the die.

If doing this does not solve your problem you either have variations in the bullets themselves, or wrong seater plug, or debris in your seater die.

I've tried this method of loading the press full of brass etc. and am getting the same results. I think that the seating die that you are talking about is the RCBS where you can unscrew the "seating plug" not the Dillon die. On the Dillon seating die, you have to adjust the whole die. That's where the confusion was.

Edit: I tried switching my dies from my new Dillon die to my "old" RCBS die and have the same results.

[morrow]

I've tried this method of loading the press full of brass etc. and am getting the same results. I think that the seating die that you are talking about is the RCBS where you can unscrew the "seating plug" not the Dillon die. On the Dillon seating die, you have to adjust the whole die. That's where the confusion was.

Edit: I tried switching my dies from my new Dillon die to my "old" RCBS die and have the same results.

The RCBS die is a combo seat/crimp die. The Dillon dies seat and crimp in separate dies. You can refer to my post in this thread on how to properly adjust a combo die (RCBS) here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=10413709#post10413709

Make sure all stations are loaded when you lock it down (like i described in my first post of this thread).

If you are using the correct seating plug, and your die is clean, and adjusted correctly and you still get OAL variations, i'd look to the bullets themselves varying in spec. It happens.