ugh what's going on with my loads? Update

[mroels]

note: I know most of you don't need an update as we've pretty much camee to the conclusion as to what the issue is. But I just wanted to share because at some point another person will come across the same situation and hopefully this thread will be helpful

update#2:Went to the range again, a week later than planned. Obviously my main thinking is still that it is the bullet, which kind of confirmed by the fact that bulk cheapo 55grainers are doing better than match grade bullets. I did improve the groups a bit but it's still well above 1 moa and I know my rifle can do much better. All my dies were cleaned and re-installed perfectly. I used fresh Hornady brass. Brass prep was meticulous. Charges thrown with the newly acquired Chargemaster.

At 100 Yards:
5rnds - 68gr HDY (problem batch), 22.7 TAC --> 1.35moa
5rnds - 68gr HDY (new batch), 22.7 TAC --> 1.55moa
5rnds - 68gr HDY (new batch), 25 Varget --> 1.36moa
5rnds - 68gr HDY (new batch), 22.7 TAC --> 1.88moa crimped
5rnds - 55gr WIN FMJ, 22.7 TAC --> 1.18moa

I used this as an excuse to buy a RCBS Chargemaster and a bullet comparator. And ordered some Nosler 69gr, so I'll be comparing them side by side.

I also re-weighed the bullets using the Chargemaster: weighed 30 bullets
HDY 68gr --> avg:67.82gr sd:0.063gr Not one bullet weighed 68grains
NOS 69gr --> avg:68.98gr sd:0.027

Also measured bullets from base-to-ogive: measured 30 bullets
HDY 68gr --> avg:0.5965" sd:0.000972"
NOS 69gr --> avg:0.0520" sd:0.000943"

still using cheapo calipers

Assuming the Nosler's perform I'm going to put the Hornady's aside until I get my new upper which will have a 1/7twist and see if they perform in that barrel



update#1: went to the range this AM. I was still all over the place, not even worth measuring. I also shot 4x5 round groups of 75gr Hornady TAP, which all came in well under MOA with the best group at 0.556" (cool number). So it wasnt me (well its me diring the loading process) or my gear.

Used once fired, out of my rifle, brass that was FL sized pushing the shoulder and trimmed. Only thing I noticed during case prep is that I have to update my trimmer (using Lee zip). The gauge sets the timer to 1.7540" so there are cases ranging from 1.740"-1.753". Would this cause over 2moa groups? I changed seating OAL to 2.225" which is what my notes show was the depth when I previously used this bullet.

On my next trip I'm going to hand trim every case to 1.750" and compare crimped vs. non crimped


Original Post
Frustrating morning at the range. Previously favor loads are being beat out by previous crap loads. A new bullet that has previously performed well was all over the place. Any input appreciated!

Pre-range: Rifles got a thorough cleaning this week. But before testing loads I fired 10 fouling shots through each of the rifles.

Shooting: Considering recent cleaning I tested round robin style, 2 minutes timed between each shot for consistent barrel cooling. Timed cease-fires for the same reason. I was probably a big part of crappy groups, was a little tense for whatever reason, but definitely not for the extreme crazy big groups in .223

Mistake: My lowest loads were messed up because I took the fouling shots at the 500yd gong and forgot to bring scopes back to zero, so 4 shot groups instead of 5. Made this mistake twice.

.223
Recipe:
68gr Hornady HPBT Match
RAM TAC 22.5, 22.7, 23, 23.5, 23.7, 24
CCI 41
Black Hills Brass
2.255" OAL

Rifle: AR15 RRA 16" 1/9
This was just a failure all the way around. Nothing under 1.5MOA!! I just switched back to this bullet after using Nosler 69gr. In the past I was getting solid .75MOA if not better. I chose to go back to this round due to high BC. Only thing that I changed since the past was OAL, I went from 2.20" to 2.255" so I'll have to retry this. Also my brass is on it's 5th reloading, could this be causing these terrible groups?

ETA: Measured and weighed bullets. Grains went from 68gr to 66.7gr. Length from 0.9905" to 0.9845". Diameter from .2225" to .2235", none at .224"? Is this variance normal?

Well at least I got to shoot today!

[ireload]

Since you mentioned that your on your 5th firing on your brass, it could be the neck tension (possibly a bit loose) is different from the previous firing. You may need to anneal the neck or get new brass. Try new brass first before you anneal and see if your grouping improves.

[mroels]

I guess it could be the brass, although I full length size the .223. So would that still affect the neck tension? And would it cause groups to go from .75moa to over 2moa from one firing to the next?

Well I got more brass I guess it time to toss this batch. No annealing set up yet.

[the led farmer]

What r the chances it's you and not your gear?

[rsrocket1]

If you are full length sizing, you are still sizing the neck, or should be. Otherwise, your bullets would fall through the neck. Usually (as with the Lee die), the die under sizes the neck and an expansion ball pulls it back out to the correct size. This works the neck more than a collet neck sizer that only squeezes the neck against a mandrel.

[mroels]

What r the chances it's you and not your gear?

Normally I would blame it on me. But going from .75moa to 2+moa? I'll take half the blame but that still leaves a big change to be explained.

Eta: I could take 100% of the blame if we include anything I could've done wrong during the loading process. But in that case I'd still want to know what I might've done wrong.

[mroels]

If you are full length sizing, you are still sizing the neck, or should be. Otherwise, your bullets would fall through the neck. Usually (as with the Lee die), the die under sizes the neck and an expansion ball pulls it back out to the correct size. This works the neck more than a collet neck sizer that only squeezes the neck against a mandrel.

I understand the process of full length resizing. But would the 5th reloading of the brass cause it to over expand, due to weakening of the brass, when the expansion ball runs through it?

With the collet die I could see the brass springing back due to multiple uses, but with FL sizing considering the initial under sizing of the neck would this happen still? Btw is any of this offset by the fact that I apply a light crimp?

[Bill Steele]

I don't load 223 so I can't speak to the things that can go wrong with that specific caliber. I posted on another thread that I got what I suspect we're some knock off Hornaday bullets. The ES on the measurements you took on the bullets seems larger than I normally see on 308 bullets that weigh three times as much, so I would look first at he bullets. One thing I do now is use the comparator and measure ogives on the raw bullets, they should be within .001 base to ogive's bullet to bullet.

On the difference of the "sweet spot" moving on the 308, I doubt more neck tension would move the node. I have found run of the mill LC brass has some pretty wide spreads in case volumes in a given headstamp (year). Different case volumes will give you very different pressures/velocities for the same load, maybe the node moved because the volumes moved?

I have found it much easier to develop and reproduce consistent loads by using quality brass. My favorite brass is Lapua.

[mroels]

I remember reading your thread on the possible knock off which is why I initially measured the bullets. I got them from midway about a month ago, but they were in plastic though.

As for LC case volume...I'm thinking that too so I've got some lapua coming my way!

[Bill Steele]

I remember reading your thread on the possible knock off which is why I initially measured the bullets. I got them from midway about a month ago, but they were in plastic though.

As for LC case volume...I'm thinking that too so I've got some lapua coming my way!

If you haven't done it, try measuring the base to ogive's with a comparator. See if the ogive's to base dimension is consistent. I guess it is possible Hornaday is having production problems. I tried everything, those. 155 AMAXs were garbage. I tried some 178's that measured fine and got to a .2 MOA group first ladder I loaded, so I think something was wrong with the bullets.

Sorry to hear you ordered that Lapua brass, no going back now! When you get them take a close look at he cases, amazing, look into the case with some light, check out the flash hole, no burrs, perfectly round, the only way to go.

[mroels]

Did you ever hear back from hornady? I'm gonna give these a try with some fresh brass see if it improves, if not I'll go back to nosler. I just added the bullet comparator to my brass order... Funny that I'm ordering a hornady product to check hornady quality.

I've been using lapua brass for my .223 bolt action. Just got my .308 a couple of months ago so hadn't bought better brass yet.

[Bill Steele]

Did you ever hear back from hornady? I'm gonna give these a try with some fresh brass see if it improves, if not I'll go back to nosler. I just added the bullet comparator to my brass order... Funny that I'm ordering a hornady product to check hornady quality.

I've been using lapua brass for my .223 bolt action. Just got my .308 a couple of months ago so hadn't bought better brass yet.

I talked to the tech support guys and they could not explain the dimensions I was seeing but confirmed it was really waaay off. They confirmed the lot number and that they should have been bagged, but said they were manufactured in mid-2010, so something was goofy.

They offered to send me some free stuff to make it up to me, but I told them I thought it was likely not their problem.

I have had really good luck with Hornaday bullets in general and just tried some of their 308 cases and they seem to be working pretty well (that is what I used on the 178gr AMAXs I tried). Their cases are not as nice as Lapua, but for the money, seem pretty darn good. The comparator will make life easier. Did you get the headspace attachments so you can also check the shoulders? I think Grafs sells those separately if you didn't.

[mroels]

Didn't get the headspace attachment because I have rcbs mics for both my calibers.

But I'm gonna retry those bullets with fresher brass. And for the .308 I'll wait for the lapua to arrive. I've got time...waiting for my magneto speed next Thursday!

[Bill Steele]

Didn't get the headspace attachment because I have rcbs mics for both my calibers.

But I'm gonna retry those bullets with fresher brass. And for the .308 I'll wait for the lapua to arrive. I've got time...waiting for my magneto speed next Thursday!

I think my Magnetospeed was the best investment I have made in shooting in years. I had mine out he other day and a guy was fiddling was his traditional setup, checking lines, distance from the muzzle, wondering if the marine layer was going to stay or burn off, having to wait for the next cease fire to make an adjustment, wondering if those kids next to him were going to shoot it up, etc. etc. My MS has never missed a shot. Enjoy.

[huckberry668]

Twice the group size... I usually check the accessories like scope, screws, mounts first instead of blaming reload components but.... the "Hornady" bullets diameter is definitely too small. The grooves of the rifling is .224" so your bullet is smaller than your bore. No accuracy can come from such fit especially when they're inconsistent.

I've never had good luck with Hornady match grade bullets compare to SMK or Nosler CC especially the .224 cal. I had a 500rd box of 6.5 SMKs that had 2 distinctly different ogive-to-base measurements. Because I load them close to the lands, group sizes were inconsistent if unsorted. so I ended up sorting them by hand. Now I spot check each box of bullets before I load.

I'm not sure why you increased your 223's OAL by .350". It shouldn't even load in the mag at 2.55". If you shoot them mag fed, you may be setting the bullet back into the case which can cause accuracy as well as pressure problems.