.308 Ammo Outlook

[Strong Box16]

Ive been a long time reader here and usually find most of my information in past threads but I finally have a question I cant find. Im looking to get a 308 battle rifle, particularly a ptr 91, but getting your hands on .308 seems impossible right now, even non surplus. Is it worth it to get into 308 this late in the game? Or should I stick with my 7.62x39? or swap over to the 223? I really dont have much invested in guns and ammo and Im trying to figure out what I should start stocking up on before Obama gets back into office, and the fact the Home land security ordered Millions of rounds doesnt re leave much stress.... Please help me out here.

[Colt562]

If money is no issue then why not?

[Strong Box16]

well money is an issue, Im 18 and i work 60 hrs a week supporting myself, hence me being worried about getting into .308, Im not looking to pay for top dollar ammo. Will there be more surplus coming in ever?

[Colt562]

well money is an issue, Im 18 and i work 60 hrs a week supporting myself, hence me being worried about getting into .308, Im not looking to pay for top dollar ammo. Will there be more surplus coming in ever?

I hear you, im 19. Since it is a issue, I would just stick with the guns you have already. For a decent 308 ~$1000. Plus ammo. You might want to look into reloading if you really want a 308.

ALSO, look in the marketplace, every once in a while you will find a good deal for 308.

[Bongos]

Well, from my experience... you are going to shoot 3 to 10 more in a 223 or 7.62x39 than you will a 308... if you do the math, yes 308 cost more but you will shoot a lot less. thus... in the end, its not that expensive.. a day at the range you can go through 500-700 rds of 7.62x39... in 308 most likely about 200 at most...I shoot a bolt which is even less about 40 rounds

7.62x39 hitting targets at 200 yrd is fun and amusing... rapid fire
223 going further..400 yards.. hitting the plate 4 out of 10 time, satisfying
308 one shot 600 yards...good to go..... hitting targets at 900yard,,, gratifying satisfying...

[problemchild]

Here is the real world info. I have both and have backed off to shooting my 223 and 22lr. The 308 is just too expensive to shoot for now. When I took my 308 to the range I shot 100-150 rds. When I take my 223 including the wife's 223 we shoot about 300rds between two guns or about 150ea. I reload both calibers so its cheaper to shoot but still too expensive to blast away with the big bore 2-3x per month. Nothing about the 308 is cheap. Not the ammo, not the glass and not the gun itself.

In my opinion I would get a nice 223, a reloader and blast away. Maybe get a ruger 10-22 and use that every other weekend to save $$$. When you start making more cash get the 308 of your dreams and SB glass and shoot away. There is plenty of ammo to be had at the gun shows. More than all of us could ever afford to buy. If you decide to go ahead and ignore reason you can reload 308 for about .14c each.

Oh and I had a real HK-91 the rifle the ptr clone copies and its a neat gun to shoot but not very accurate. I ended up selling all my real HK's (91 and 93). The PTR is the ak-47 or 308's and not meant for paper punching at 900yds. You need a good bolt gun for that like a GAP.

Well, from my experience... you are going to shoot 3 to 10 more in a 223 or 7.62x39 than you will a 308... if you do the math, yes 308 cost more but you will shoot a lot less. thus... in the end, its not that expensive.. a day at the range you can go through 500-700 rds of 7.62x39... in 308 most likely about 200 at most...I shoot a bolt which is even less about 40 rounds

7.62x39 hitting targets at 200 yrd is fun and amusing... rapid fire
223 going further..400 yards.. hitting the plate 4 out of 10 time, satisfying
308 one shot 600 yards...good to go..... hitting targets at 900yard,,, gratifying satisfying...

[Bongos]

Well since your only caliber is 7.62x39... going to 223 or 308 is going to cost more than the 7.62x39 (unless you shoot the Yugo stuff)... like I said, one 308 is the cost of two 223.. even with a battle rifle, you will seldom go more than 200 rounds. I've around gun for a while and I've owned the HK91 as well as the 89,93, & 94.. they all run on roller lock recoil systems, though innovative.. these guns have a lot of recoil for a caliber.. thus more modern firearmes moved away form the design. The internal rollers do wear out in the bolt and replacements are costly.. but hey.. it's a nice design.. If it has to be a battlerifle.. then go with the designer which created the "Battle Rifle" insignia.. the FAL.. there are a ton of these out there and they cost less or as much as your PTR.. with the adjustable gas system, you can shoot any 7.62x51 (308) surplus made from around the world. Again, due to the nature of the 223, people tend to go ape ***** when shooting it.. going thru 500 rounds before you know it... I used to go to the range every week and seldom see 308 shooter through that much lead as 223 shooter.. but everyone has his own opinion

[OldShooter32]

Get one of the CMP M1s in .308 and start handloading. You will enjoy "the finest battle rifle ever made" (according to Patton) and you can handload at much lower cost. Then start shooting in Vintage Military matches and you will be hooked.

[Cowboy T]

If you're looking at an H&K-pattern rifle, then consider the CETME. This is actually the rifle on which the H&K G3 was based on, i. e. the H&K is a copy of the CETME. You can usually get CETME's for about $500 to $600.

I disagree with the assertion that they're inaccurate. Experience has shown me otherwise. However, any rifle of this pattern can be kinda hard on the brass unless you get the ejection port deflector. This snaps onto the rifle at the rear of the ejection port and prevents the brass from getting dinged up nearly so much. CETME's are fine battle rifles, and they take the inexpensive $2.00 H&K magazines that CheaperThanDirt sells. Yes, the magazines are two dollars.

As for reloading .308 Win, buying the ammo ain't cheap. It's comparable to any other full-powered rifle round (8x57, .30-06, 7.62x54R reloadable, and so on). I would recommend that you shop for milsurp Lake City brass, with the "LC" headstamp. This is very good brass that will last a while, even out of a H&K-pattern rifle.

Also, consider casting your own bullets. CETME/H&K-pattern rifles don't use a gas tube, so they're cast "boolit" friendly. You'll save plenty of money by doing so. You don't have to run full-power rounds all the time, either, but a lighter load of 37,000 PSI using, say, H322 and a cast bullet will reliably cycle a CETME's action.

Something for you to think about.

BTW, what type of rifle is your 7.62x39? Are we talking CZ 527, SKS, AK-47, Mini-30--whatcha got?

.

[sunborder]

you can reload 308 for about .14c each.

I call BS on that.

It's more like $0.50 each, unless you are loading cast lead bullets. This is doable, but it won't cycle the action on an autoloader. This is more the sort of thing you do in surplus military bolt-action rifles that are close to 100 years old. I know. I do it. This assumes that you scavenge lead, use copper gas checks, and have a rifle and brass that can be fired dozens of times at low pressure (which the .308 can't because it doesn't headspace on the rim like .303 brit or 7.62x54R).

The rub on this, though, is that you are looking at hundreds of dollars worth of reloading and casting equipment, need to have a source of lead, and pretty much kiss shooting semi-auto goodbye.

For what it's worth, I'd say buy the .308, a budget scope or quality iron sights, and a stack of ammo. Then make your next purchase a reloading setup and a large stash of components (primers, powder and bullets are the most important, in that order). As time/finances allow, order more components, spare parts for the rifle, magazines, mag pouches, etc... Maybe put some really nice glass on it when you can afford it.

As for the whole election thing, the Democrats are fighting for their life in the senate. There is no way that they will retake the house. It looks like 4 more years of gridlock. Any panic in the firearms community is just that: Panic. He won't be able to pass any bans, and he's not going to be able to appoint anyone to the supreme court.

now if only we could make firearm ownership non-political, or at least a bi-partisan issue, then we might see some light at the end of the tunnel...

[sunborder]

Also, consider casting your own bullets. CETME/H&K-pattern rifles don't use a gas tube, so they're cast "boolit" friendly. You'll save plenty of money by doing so. You don't have to run full-power rounds all the time, either, but a lighter load of 37,000 PSI using, say, H322 and a cast bullet will reliably cycle a CETME's action.

Interesting. What sort of alloy are you using for that? I'm assuming it would have to be at least #2 or maybe linotype? Gas-checked, obviously. Any particular mold you find works well? Tumble Lube?

I hadn't heard of a full-sized semi-auto battle rifle able to cycle lead bullets at safe pressures without leading.

[Strong Box16]

Im pretty set on the ptr 91 over the CETME's just because its only $300 more and Ive read the quality surpasses the hk91's even, and If someone could show me where I could get a DSA FAL or something equivalent in quality for the same price please let me know.. But yes reloading would be a must, I have a buddy that does it and can set me up and show me how, plus you could get into a reloading kit for under the cost of buying 1000 rounds. The only rifle I have is a sks right now with 1000 rounds put away with it, I was considering buying a good ak 47 or vz.58 instead of the ptr to stick with the same round but you guys really like the 308s hu?

[sunborder]

Well, it's always a matter of what you want to do with the rifle.

If you want a close-quarters to mid-range carbine, then an AK or SKS is a decent choice.

If you want to reach out and touch at 600 yards with a nice magnified optic? Not so much. That's more .308 territory.

Honestly, if you already have a rifle, you may want to get the rifle, then reloading setup BEFORE you make a sizable ammo purchase.

If you are planning on putting ammo away so that you can shoot it regularly without ammo supply interruptions, this is the way to go. You just restock components when necessary, and you can save on brass (200-300 pieces of brass per 1k rounds fired instead of 1k brass for 1k bullets...).

If you want a stash of ammo for a blue-helmet/black-helicopter scenario, well, my guess is you wouldn't be picking up your brass anyway...so you're not going to have significant savings over bulk/steel-cased ammo unless you are loading some kind of premium bullet (match, BTHP, ballistic tip, etc...).

[Cowboy T]

Interesting. What sort of alloy are you using for that? I'm assuming it would have to be at least #2 or maybe linotype? Gas-checked, obviously. Any particular mold you find works well? Tumble Lube?

I hadn't heard of a full-sized semi-auto battle rifle able to cycle lead bullets at safe pressures without leading.

You can do it as long as you're careful. I've done a few just to see if it was feasible (it is). For .308 Win, I load to about 40,000 PSI, which is enough to cycle a CETME or H&K G3/91. For this, I use a 50/50 wheel weight/Linotype mix, which is about BHN 18 or so. Works just great, as long as you remember to use enough lube (heavier is better here due to the rifle-length barrel), and yes, I do tumble-lube. No leading.

Im pretty set on the ptr 91 over the CETME's just because its only $300 more and Ive read the quality surpasses the hk91's even, and If someone could show me where I could get a DSA FAL or something equivalent in quality for the same price please let me know.. But yes reloading would be a must, I have a buddy that does it and can set me up and show me how, plus you could get into a reloading kit for under the cost of buying 1000 rounds. The only rifle I have is a sks right now with 1000 rounds put away with it, I was considering buying a good ak 47 or vz.58 instead of the ptr to stick with the same round but you guys really like the 308s hu?

Actually, ain't nothin' wrong with 7.62x39, either. It depends on how far you wish to shoot. if you're looking to go 500 yards and still have plenty of terminal velocity, then go .308 Win. However, a CZ 527 bolt gun in 7.62x39 will reach out and drop Bambi with ease at 200 yards, maybe a bit more. Remember that the 7.62x39 cartridge's purpose is different from the 7.62x51 NATO's purpose. The former is a close-in, "assault team" light carbine round intended for fully-automatic fire. The latter is a long-range battle rifle round, akin to the 7.62x54R or the .30-06 Garand loads.

One nice thing about .308 Win is that 7.62x51 NATO brass is available for not a lot of money. If you get Lake City-headstamped ("LC") brass, it'll generally last longer than civvie .308 Win cases. It'll also last longer than Federal's new 7.62 NATO cases (the new "FC" headstamped ones tend to split faster).

What do you really want to use this rifle for?

[problemchild]

I call BS on your BS and GO ALL IN!

Read on jackson..........

I have purchased the projectiles in bulk for as low as 5.9c each but I wont leak that info as its not an all the time deal and I save it for myself.
If you use my numbers with a .05c projectile cost, and a cheaper wolf primer and lower the charge a bit you can run a loaded round for .149c each. Or like I said .14c each.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=496332&highlight=reloading

I call BS on that.

It's more like $0.50 each, unless you are loading cast lead bullets. This is doable, but it won't cycle the action on an autoloader. This is more the sort of thing you do in surplus military bolt-action rifles that are close to 100 years old. I know. I do it. This assumes that you scavenge lead, use copper gas checks, and have a rifle and brass that can be fired dozens of times at low pressure (which the .308 can't because it doesn't headspace on the rim like .303 brit or 7.62x54R).

The rub on this, though, is that you are looking at hundreds of dollars worth of reloading and casting equipment, need to have a source of lead, and pretty much kiss shooting semi-auto goodbye.

For what it's worth, I'd say buy the .308, a budget scope or quality iron sights, and a stack of ammo. Then make your next purchase a reloading setup and a large stash of components (primers, powder and bullets are the most important, in that order). As time/finances allow, order more components, spare parts for the rifle, magazines, mag pouches, etc... Maybe put some really nice glass on it when you can afford it.

As for the whole election thing, the Democrats are fighting for their life in the senate. There is no way that they will retake the house. It looks like 4 more years of gridlock. Any panic in the firearms community is just that: Panic. He won't be able to pass any bans, and he's not going to be able to appoint anyone to the supreme court.

now if only we could make firearm ownership non-political, or at least a bi-partisan issue, then we might see some light at the end of the tunnel...