Excessive muzzle flash and bulged cases

[kdsd731]

I'm reloading 30-06. In the past I had used 48gr of H335 with a 150gr FMJBT and everything was good. Then I switched to H4895 and used 48gr with a 150gr FMJBT and once again, all was good. Now I'm using WC834 and since it says cross reference it with H335 so I used 48gr again but this time with a 147.5gr FMJBT and my muzzle flash was ridiculously large and my cases started bulging. Obviously it was loaded way too hot. If my H335 load was good then I would think this WC844 should be identical results. The only difference being bullet weight. But is that small a difference going to cause that? Anyone have a suggestion for a good starting load?

[Bill Steele]

I'm reloading 30-06. In the past I had used 48gr of H335 with a 150gr FMJBT and everything was good. Then I switched to H4895 and used 48gr with a 150gr FMJBT and once again, all was good. Now I'm using WC834 and since it says cross reference it with H335 so I used 48gr again but this time with a 147.5gr FMJBT and my muzzle flash was ridiculously large and my cases started bulging. Obviously it was loaded way too hot. If my H335 load was good then I would think this WC844 should be identical results. The only difference being bullet weight. But is that small a difference going to cause that? Anyone have a suggestion for a good starting load?

Strange, according to my Lee 2nd edition, 48gr of H335 is just one grain more than the start load for 150gr jacketed, so if W834 is indeed cross referenced to H335 something seems out of whack.

The max load listed for H335 for 150gr jacketed is 51.5gr which sounds like it might be a real problem for your gun.

Did you chrony the H335 or H4895? How did it compare to the WC834 load?

A lighter bullet should be able to take a little more powder, not less.

Sounds like the advice of cross referencing your WC834 to H335 was not right, at least for the powder you received.

[kdsd731]

I know, that's how I felt about it. Something seemed off. I should be at a starting load but it's way too hot. I bought that powder off a buddy who's grandpa died for a sweet deal. It was a sealed jug. Can age affect it by chance? I'm just bummed because now I have to go and pull the 200 rounds I just made not to mention the 300 rounds of .223 I made also.

[troysland]

My WC844 loads of 25 gr .223 seemed a bit hotter than my H335 loads of the same charge. I've sinced backed it down to 24.7 gr. My research found many sources that say H335 meters like mil-surp WC844, but without a chrono, working the loads from a minimum charge would be best. I've read that the consistancy of WC844 varies from lot to lot.

[Knife Edge]

I will try to stay in my lane here, no 30-06 expert by any means. The longer case of the 30-06 really needs a slower burning powder, the Hornady 8th doesn't list any of the powders you are using for 150-155g bullets and larger. In fact the largest piece of lead associated with H4895 is 130g and H335 is unlisted. I would also watch out with surplus powder. Lake City and manufacturers buy it by the lot and the burn rates are not consistent from lot to lot. They actually determine the burn rate and modify the loading for that particular lot; that's one of the reasons 5 guys will give you 5 different measurements of how much powder Federal uses in their gold medal match, and it's not commercial powder either.

In my opinion, unless you score a killer deal on surplus powder, the lost time to save $20 to $30 is not worth it as you have to redevelop a load for that lot. For me that involves determining max and then shooting a ladder downwards from there; total time killer. I will spend a bit more and not have to reinvent the wheel each time.

Hopefully you learned a lesson and were lucky that bolt didn't shear a lug and fly rearward at you. Always start down from max, max may come sooner or later dependent upon whether the powder is temperature sensitive, type brass used, primer, case length, seating depth.

If you insist on shooting the old '06 I would seriously consider a powder that wasn't developed around the 5.56/7.62, but rather IMR 4350, VIHT N-140/150. The '06 is unusual in that the recommended powder changes quite a bit as the cases are long and the bullets range from 110g to 220g.

[kdsd731]

I see what your saying and it makes complete sense. Since I had used H335 in the past and was fine I was just surprised this powder was so different. I got a grat deal. 1800 55gr .223 FMJBT, 350 147.5gr .308 FMJBT and an 8lb jug of WC844 for $200. And no, I haven't done any chrono testing yet.

[CalTeacher]

Military surplus powder can vary in burn rate from lot to lot more than canister grade powders. Canister grade powders offered from commercial powder manufacturers have much tighter tolerances on their burn rates of their powders and are usually very consistent. You may have bought a "hot" lot of surplus powder and you need to adjust your load accordingly. When buying surplus powder, you must always work up a new load every time you receive powder from a new lot.

[kdsd731]

Thanks guys...I thought I was at a starting load...lol. If I'm at 48gr now with a freaking flame thrower and bulged cases, how far down would you recommend going? What's the standard formula for that?

[OldShooter32]

Buy or rent a chronograph. Start loading low by 4-5 grains and work up to where you are pushing 2500 fps or so, then tune for accuracy.

[Knife Edge]

Thanks guys...I thought I was at a starting load...lol. If I'm at 48gr now with a freaking flame thrower and bulged cases, how far down would you recommend going? What's the standard formula for that?

Probably wrong powder for '06. Go to hodgedons website, you can look up all that stuff.

[FLIGHT762]

I've used a lot of H-335 in the M-1 Garand with 147-150 grain bullets. I load 45-46 grains. I tried a recommended load one time of 49.0 grains of H-335 with G.I. LC cases. I got stretched primer pockets and bulged cases, way too hot! I went down to 46 grains and it was much better.

If your lot of WC-844 is a bit faster, I would try 45 grains and see what that does. Even with my H-335 loads, I get a large flash out of the Garand, but the load is accurate.

I've used WC-844 and two different lots of WC-852 for the Garand. You don't see the WC-852 around much anymore, but that stuff ranged in speed from H-335 to IMR4831, you had to be careful what lot you got.

The WC-844 I have now, is right within my loads with H-335. WC-844 doesn't vary as much as the WC-852 did.

Just remember when you change to an unproven powder, you have to start low and work up and look for pressure signs. Your WC-844 will work, you just started too high.

[Knife Edge]

Doesn't it make you wonder, outside of loading pistol powder, what it actually takes to blow one of these things up? Not looking to, but often wonder how many grains past max is instantaneously bad.

[joelogic]

Do not try this at home but I dont think you can blow up a rifle using the correct powder for the case. I was compressing 44.5grs of WC846 into a .308 case with a 175gr bullet to see the max speed I could get and the primers were blowing out but there is no way I could have put more powder in the case.

[FLIGHT762]

Actually, it's pretty true about not having a catastrophic failure using a proper for caliber powder, at least in Rifles.

In the 1950's P.O. Ackley set out to do an experiment of blowing up the actions of 18 different bolt action types. He used his .270 Ackley Magnum cartridge for all of the tests. The .270 Ackley was formed from .300 H&H Magnum brass and is a high pressure cartridge.

The powder he chose was IMR 3031, a powder which is much too fast for that Magnum cartridge. He used up to about 68 grains of 3031. To get more effect, on some actions, he used a booster charge of about 20 grains of Hercules 2400 along with the 60+ grains of IMR 3031.

He published the findings along wit the loading data used in his 1959 edition of his Handbook for shooters and reloaders. A very interesting read. I came across a copy of the handbook several years ago.

Some of the strongest actions were the Japanese Arisaka actions.

[Bill Steele]

Do not try this at home but I dont think you can blow up a rifle using the correct powder for the case. I was compressing 44.5grs of WC846 into a .308 case with a 175gr bullet to see the max speed I could get and the primers were blowing out but there is no way I could have put more powder in the case.

I think it might depend on the combination of caliber and action. I was talking to a guy at the range one day who blew up his sporterized 6.5x55 Swedish by putting too much powder in the case. Seems the older actions were a little weaker than the modern versions.