45ACP help please......

[sjg1966]

Here is my issue from today.....

I'm using a Lee Breech Lock single stage. I made some test loads using W231 and Berrys 185gr plate FP and 1.20 OAL.

I started at 5.0 gr and then did 5.2, 5.4, 5.6 and 5.8. I used the Lee book. Their starting was 5.0 and max was 5.9.

Today I went out to give them a shot (lol) and started with the 5.0gr. They, as with the 5.2, and 5.4 did not cycle the slide much if any. I had a stovepipe with the 5.4. I had some crap come back at my face, felt like sand? The 5.6 cycled 1 out of 5 times, and all of the 5.8 cycled the pistol fine, but the brass did not eject very far. Did not feel any of the crud fly back at me on the 5.8gr.

Thats it in a nutshell. I am using the Lee dies. Is this a headspace issue? Should I crimp/or not crimp. I did crimp these very lightly with the FCD.

I did take a box of Winchester White Box 230gr and the gun (Sig P220) cycled just fine with those.

I looked at my books today again, and the Lyman starts at 4.7 (6.0 max) and Hornady starts at 6.4 (7.2 max), both are for a jacketed or XTP round, so since I was using plated I thought the Lee 5.0 starting point was good.

I guess a set back was to be expected at some point, needless to say I was disappointed. All my other test runs and batches for 38/9mm/223 have been problem free so far.

Thanks for reading and any help....Steve

[NotEnufGarage]

I looked up that combination on ammoguide and I'm seeing 6.1gr as a max load. 5.0 would be almost a 20% reduction.

When your looking for load data for plated bullets, consider velocity. As long as you're under 1200, you'll be fine. The 6.1gr max load shows a velocity of 980 FPS, so that's well within the capabilities of a plated bullet.

Generally, if you want to shoot powder puff loads, you'll probably have to install a softer recoil spring to make up for the softer recoil.

[BSlacker]

I use 200gr Berry's with W231. In a P220. 6.1gr W231 produces about 850 over my Chrono and cycles the slide with a 15lb recoil spring. I will do about 5k rounds before replacement of the spring. The stuff back in your face is because the brass is not sealing the chamber due to low pressure. With 185gr plated bullets you could go to 6.1gr W231.

[Bill Steele]

I agree with the conclusions above, sounds like your OAL and crimp are fine, you just started a little low. The unburned powder was due to under charge (powders burn faster as pressures rise). Stay on the higher end and it sounds like you will be fine.

Brass not flying far is a good thing.

[XDRoX]

I would be perplexed also Steve. You did everything according to how it should be done. You started low but built up, and slowly tested everything.

Unfortunately I don't load 45 using W231/HP38, so I don't have any data that will help. But its sounds like these guys already nailed the problem. If BSlacker is using 6.1gr under 200gr bullets and it's only producing 850fps, you could safely go to 6.1gr or even higher with 185gr bullets.

The confusing part is why your manual started so low.
I just checked 3 of my manuals:
5.0 to 5.9
4.5 to 5.0
4.4 to 6.1

Usually I don't have bad luck starting at the lower ends. It's, after all, safer. And it's not like your Sig should react differently than the large majority of 45's being loaded for.

If I were you I'd bump up the load to 6.0gr and give it another shot. You certainly won't damage the gun at this level and you can check for signs of pressure which I'm also sure you won't see.

Also just remember that stovepipes and brass not ejecting very far and slides not cycling are usually due to two things.
Not enough powder or limp wristing.

Is it possible you could have been limp wristing any of your shots?

It's sad to say but nowadays when developing a new load I usually just ask for peoples favorites on glocktalk instead of going to a manual. I double check it with my manuals and then load 'em up. Today's manuals are all so lawyered up it's ridiculous.

[sjg1966]

Hey guys....

Ok after reading your replies I feel better now. No limp wristing was occurring. I shot a box of factory ammo too without any issues. So I'll try working up past the 5.8gr that did work and see how things go. I only started with a pound of 231. I have some Unique that I have not touched yet, so maybe I'll work something up with that and stick with it.....

Thanks for reading and the help.....Steve

[J-cat]

Need 14lb recoil spring...

[Chief-7700]

I have loaded 200 LSWC over 4.9 grains of 231 by the thousands and never had a problem.
Gun's recoil spring is 16.5 pounds.

[smalltime]

Is your scale accurate? Those loads seem like they should cycle fine.

[3RDGEARGRNDRR]

Usually I don't have bad luck starting at the lower ends. It's, after all, safer. And it's not like your Sig should react differently than the large majority of 45's being loaded for.

If I were you I'd bump up the load to 6.0gr and give it another shot. You certainly won't damage the gun at this level and you can check for signs of pressure which I'm also sure you won't see.
.

yes, with the bullet weight you are using, you should be on the higher end of loading. yes, go up to 6.0 and even 6.1 g. in my expierience with hp-38/w231 it is very low pressure to begin with and never really exceeds the tolerance for overpressure that much on the "max" loads. if you didnt feel crud and issues at 5.8, then you should load up from there. it would be helpful to chrono your loads as well. i am loading 235g at 5.8 now, and the shells dont fly that far from me either. if you arent comfrotable, try another powder

[huckberry668]

Is your scale accurate? Those loads seem like they should cycle fine.

I agree. 5.0 grains of W231 is plenty to cycle any one of my 45s whatever the bullet. Either your recoil spring is way too heavy, under size bullet diameter or your scale is off.

[J-cat]

I have loaded 200 LSWC over 4.9 grains of 231 by the thousands and never had a problem.
Gun's recoil spring is 16.5 pounds.

But his spring is prolly 18.5lbs and he's prolly not holding the gun firmly enough and allowing it to flip under recoil.

[sjg1966]

Replies to replies.....

But his spring is prolly 18.5lbs and he's prolly not holding the gun firmly enough and allowing it to flip under recoil.

I will look into the recoil spring issue. I bought this P220 used, so the spring could be something other than the factory standard. I had not really thought of this, and I thank you for the heads up. I am going to order one of the "calibration" kits from Wolff. The pistol has worked flawlessly with any factory ammo I've used to date, including factory "reloads' from the gunshows here in San Diego.

I was not limp wristing. I am not a new shooter by any means. My shooting/grip is not the issue here. I shot a box of factory ammo the same range session with zero issues from the pistol or me.

My scale(s) are accurate: I've loaded hundreds of 38/9mm/.223 using the same scales I started reloading with, granted I am new to reloading. I read the Lyman and Hornady manuals before I even deprimed a single case.

My P220 is a "JK" (1989) manufacture and if the info I found is correct uses a 15LB spring. When I get the new spring I'll try and work up these loads again.

Thanks again....Steve

[gigante]

I, too, needed a higher charge to get 100% functionality out of my P220 using W231 and Berry's 230gr RN. Once I knew what it would take to cycle reliably, I stopped using my P220 as my test vehicle, and used one of my other .45s which would cycle reliably with a grain less powder.

[jdg30]

Here is my issue from today.....

I'm using a Lee Breech Lock single stage. I made some test loads using W231 and Berrys 185gr plate FP and 1.20 OAL.

I started at 5.0 gr and then did 5.2, 5.4, 5.6 and 5.8. I used the Lee book. Their starting was 5.0 and max was 5.9.

Today I went out to give them a shot (lol) and started with the 5.0gr. They, as with the 5.2, and 5.4 did not cycle the slide much if any. I had a stovepipe with the 5.4. I had some crap come back at my face, felt like sand? The 5.6 cycled 1 out of 5 times, and all of the 5.8 cycled the pistol fine, but the brass did not eject very far. Did not feel any of the crud fly back at me on the 5.8gr.

Thats it in a nutshell. I am using the Lee dies. Is this a headspace issue? Should I crimp/or not crimp. I did crimp these very lightly with the FCD.

I did take a box of Winchester White Box 23 gr and the gun (Sig P220) cycled just fine with those.

I looked at my books today again, and the Lyman starts at 4.7 (6.0 max) and Hornady starts at 6.4 (7.2 max), both are for a jacketed or XTP round, so since I was using plated I thought the Lee 5.0 starting point was good.

I guess a set back was to be expected at some point, needless to say I was disappointed. All my other test runs and batches for 38/9mm/223 have been problem free so far.

Thanks for reading and any help....Steve

I had the same problem with Xtreme 185 gr FP and W231 powder. The glock 36 would short stroke the slide, stovepipe and fail to load the next round. All the manuals gave recipes that were too weak to cycle the gun properly. I ended up going with info from the Hornady manual with a max charge of 7.2 gr W231. I load my 185 gr FP with 7.0 gr W231 at 1.20". They work great and the gun functions flawless with this charge/weight combo. Just up your charge and you'll be good.