Extreme Shock "Air Freedom Round"

[gl0ckc0ma]

I just bought a box of 20 of these rounds, for home defense. From what I have read, these rounds are used by Air Marshals, since it wont penetrate through the fusilage of an airplane. I bought these cause the main entry ways of my house is inbetween my room and my kids bedroom and I would hate to have a round shot off in self defense and penetrate into my kids room and hitting one of them accidently. I bought 20 so I could fire off a few at the range to get a feel of the round being shot off.

Anyone have these rounds or fored off these rounds?

Als I got them at Crosshairs in Torrance, employees there are always cool.

I will post pics later

[SkyStorm82]

I didn't know that company was still around....

[G60]

If a round is designed to not penetrate a wall, how well do you think they'll penetrate a bad guy?

Read the stickies on m4carbine.net terminal ballistics forum, especially the one entitled "the presumptive hazards of overpenetration" or something similar. I'd link it but I'm on my phone.

Neither FAM's, nor do anyone else who carry a sidearm for a living carry those rounds.

[gl0ckc0ma]

If a round is designed to not penetrate a wall, how well do you think they'll penetrate a bad guy?

Read the stickies on m4carbine.net terminal ballistics forum, especially the one entitled "the presumptive hazards of overpenetration" or something similar. I'd link it but I'm on my phone.

Neither FAM's, nor do anyone else who carry a sidearm for a living carry those rounds.

Seems like it will penetrate a bad guy pretty good. I have the .40 AFR and from the looks of that ballistics gel and pineapple, it looks like it will get the job done and do it well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o2owhC_Cgc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOcq82r_-4

[meaty-btz]

Snake Oil.

The concept that a low penetration round can be considered a man stopper when energy and location combine to actually bring the kill. Lots of energy and low penetration are like a birdshot from a 12 gauge shotgun. The whole bucket of birdshot combined has a good bit of energy but it expends it all on the target surface and causes painful but non-threatening injuries.

The idea that we can have a non-penetrating round that miraculously gains the ability to penetrate BONE and MUSCLE and FLEXIBLE FLESH when used on a human is ludicrous and flies in the face of physics.

Physics defeats Snake Oil.

The second vid shows exactly what I am talking about. A shallow, messy wound. A normal expanding round should in .40 should have done much more damage. If that frangible bullet strikes a bone it disintegrates. The goals of man stopping hits are all protected by BONE in humans. There is a real reason we have that bone there, PROTECTION.

[gl0ckc0ma]

so any volunteers calling this bs ready to take one in the chest to see if it works.

[SixPointEight]

We're all sorry you paid $3 a round for gimmic ammo, but nobody is going to stand in front of a gun just because. And if I remember reading right, air martials are using .357 sig Gold Dots

[gl0ckc0ma]

We're all sorry you paid $3 a round for gimmic ammo, but nobody is going to stand in front of a gun just because

It was a joke hence the smilie.

Anyway, I bought extra to take to the range, I will report back with more info when I have fired some off. From the videos I seen, it looks like it will do some damage, and I am pretty confident it will stop and intruder.

Oh and you shouldnt feel sorry, I dont.

Also I didnt pay $3 a bullet, you know what they say about assumptions.

[Munk]

air marshals use normal ammo. An airplane can keep flying with a few hundred holes in the fuselage, and it's better that the bullet is outside after having penetrated, than inside from fragmentation or ricochet. (heh, better out than in)

If you're worried about overpenetration of a badguy (i'm going to assume you'll be hitting your targets), just get some manner of rapid-expansion defense round; by the time it exits, if it does, it'll be too slow to make it past more than 1 wall.

ANY round that hits a conventional wall will go through it pretty much (barring some non-metallic "less lethal" rounds). Hollowpoints will fail to expand properly if they hit drywall and will penetrate about the same as ball ammo.

[gl0ckc0ma]

So the consensus is I should get my money back?

[meaty-btz]

So the consensus is I should get my money back?

I wouldn't shoot a big mean bad guy on drugs with it. Might just piss him off after leaving a painful crater in his flesh.

[SVRider]

These are the best resources I know of.

DocGKR is a ballistics expert that does testing for many police departments to evaluate performance of duty ammunition as well as having seen the terminal effects on many real people (autopsies).

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57072

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486

The basic bottom line is the FBI established a minimum of 12" of penetration for a reason and it's not because Americans are getting fatter.

Most bad guys are not going to present you with a nice unobscured frontal chest shot. In most shootings, bullets have to enter at odd angles, through forearms, hands, bones and other objects to get to vital organs, hence the 12" minimum requirement.

It's no doubt the fancy frangible ammo may very well be fatal to someone shot with them. The question is how quickly will they get someone to stop doing whatever it is they are doing that is threatening your life or that of your loved ones. It is all about how quickly you can get someone to stop, not will they eventually stop. I think even with no blood to the brain, the body can continue to function for something like 15 seconds. If that doesn't sound like long, imagine someone that is within arms reach trying to shoot or stab you and look at your watch for 15 seconds. There are many cases of people receiving fatal wounds and continuing to fight for several minutes or more before succumbing to their wounds.

This is the basic bible about handgun wounding mechanisms written by the FBI:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

As it explains, the two main ways to get even a determined attacker to stop is a hit to the central nervous system to shut off the voluntary signals from the brain to the body, or basically dropping their blood pressure to zero. Since the first is a pretty hard feat because the target is relatively small, the second is the most likely scenario, and to do that, you need deep holes to get to vital organs.

As for your very valid concern about the kids, strategically place furniture on both sides of the wall to shield the kids as much as possible. Plan out your shooting lanes, and position furniture accordingly.

If you want to take it a step further, look into replacing some of the drywall with something like this:

http://www.armorcore.com/

Once you paint over it, no one will be able to tell.

....and sorry to say, I believe it is Federal law....you can't return ammo....(if nothing else, it is a huge liability thing for the retailer)

HTH!

[dougtoni]

Dont listen to the scipticts. Go out and try one on something living and see what happens. A few years back i tried a extreme shock fang face on a blacktail buck at 45 yards broadside using my kimber 45. It was during deer season of course. That buck feel down like a steel plate dead right there. After the outopcy, it broke two ribs, totally liquidified the right front and left lung. Bruised and destroyed the backstrap areas and broke his spine. I found the base of the round agaisnt the skin on the otherside. I also found four of the fangs. The hole was so massive that i could put my fist through the hole. To bad i have no pics. After that i carry them in my kimber still at home and i have them in my snubnose 38 that i carry regularly. If people out there dont believe so be it. I have no dought in my mine that those rounds will work just fine for home defense. Just my two cents worth.

[WeldonHunter]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

[dougtoni]

Thats a good read. But if you are just buying the ammo in hopes of it not going though walls, good luck. I bought it so i could get as much energy transfer from short barreled guns to soft targets. I dont think there is any magical bullet that wont over penetrate a wall. Water jug tests are ok, but go find a soft target and try out a round. You wont be dissapointed.