Loading Down a 9mm.

[precisionshutr]

I reload for my Glock 19 9mm. I typically use titegroup powder with 124gr. plated bullets. the recommended charge is 4.8 grains of powder for a standard load.

I'd like to lower the recoil for quicker follow up shots. I know I can go down to 4.3 grains, can i go down to 3.8, 3.3, etc...?

I've heard it may cause pressure/safety problems? And I've heard the opposite, as long as the charge is enough to force the slide all the way back and reload the next cartrige, you can go as low of a charge as you want...?

Thanks,
Edwin

[damndave]

I wouldn't go below the listed minimum.

[joelogic]

Well, someone else can correct me, but if you lower the charge you still want a powder that fills the case. Not filling to the correct capacity can cause pressure spikes, IIRC.

However I load down to minimum minor power factor for uspsa. For 124gr 9mm that is just over 1000fps. Pretty soft but for softer felt recoil go heavier bullets.

[richrmi]

Where did you find a recommended standard load so high? I would imagine the resulting round to be somewhat of a firecracker. It sounds like you're getting some serious recoil if it's interfering with your follow on shots.

4.8 grains of Titegroup for 9mm is 0.4 grains above the maximum recommended load in both the latest Sierra and Speer (#14) manuals for standard loads, 4.4 grains max. While it's not listed, that much Titegroup in a 9mm might even exceed +P or +P+ pressure levels. Levels which could be above the safety margin of your Glock and potentially detrimental to your hands, face and eyes.

I just finished a four pound jug of Titegroup, primarily for 9mm, using a recipe slightly less than the 4.3 grains you mention also with a plated 124 grain bullet and CCI #500 primer. Yup, several thousand rounds in the past couple of years. G19 velocity measures a solid 1060 FPS and the same cartridge in the longer-barreled G17 yields 1100 FPS, both with low SD. More than sufficient to knock down steel when they're set heavier on a windy day. And still light enough for faster follow on shots.

I experimented with charge weights slightly less than 3.8 grains but had a few feed/extraction problems with a G27 to G26 conversion. I didn't want to start tinkering with custom recoil springs, etc so I stayed with what worked ALL the time.

Using the calculator on handloads.com at:

http://handloads.com/calc/index.html

Calculated energy is 309 ft-lbs at the muzzle with the G19 and 333 ft-lbs out of the G17. Not a harsh load but not a powder puff either.

Rich

[XDRoX]

You can go below most manual's starting loads without problems. As long as it functions the gun, the loads will be safe to shoot.

As you load lighter you will see these things happening:
-cases don't eject very far
-cases start to hit you in the head
-cases start to just roll out of the gun
-the gun becomes very very prone to limp wristing
-the slide will not function enough to load the next round
-the bullet will not leave the barrel

The theory of using so little powder that a pressure spike could happen is worth worrying about, but I have never seen it happen in real life. And you'd have to use like 1.0gr of powder to test it out. The theory is that with such a small amount of powder you will get an instantaneous explosion instead of a controlled burn. Again, a valid theory, but I've never seen or heard of it actually happening.

To answer your question about light 9mm loads, here are a few options. If you really want the lightest recoil, then you'll want to switch to 147gr bullets. These are very soft loads. I have chrono's all these loads out of a G19.

3.5gr of WST / 147gr plated RN = 881fps
3.8gr of WSF / 147gr plated RN = 862fps
3.3gr of Bullseye / 147gr plated RN = 842fps

The OAL was 1.140".

The first two loads make Minor, the BE load falls just short.

All these loads are very soft shooting and functioned my stock G19 just fine. Without a very firm grip on the gun the brass will not eject very far at all.

Unfortunately I didn't try any TG.

Here is the actual data from my books:

[Bill Steele]

There is a good write up about loading below start load levels in the Lee 2nd edition. Essentially, based on input from people that know at Hodgdon and his decades of experience, there is no real world basis for the urban legends of pressure spikes, flash over, shaped charge, etc. theories regarding loading below recommended start levels.

Lee takes it even further and has load tables for many popular rifle cartridges (like 308, 30-06, 30-30, etc.) with loads down as far as 50% below start levels and what the velocities will be. This is with powder that is far slower burning than you will be using in your 9mm.

Using the rules of tumb provided by Lee, you can load your Titegroup down as low as you want, you will know when you have gone too low with your particular gun as it will not cycle properly (usually a stovepipe ejection failure). The one real world thing you have to worry about is the possibility of a double charge when loading very small loads, as it may be less visable that you have two charges in the case.

Of course, being the internet, someone will be along soon to tell you how they were at the range and a guy blew his gun up by loading only .2's of a grain below the start level in his Lyman manual... but then, you would not believe how many people in America believe 9/11 was a CIA operation as well.

[sargenv]

Not filling to the correct capacity can cause pressure spikes, IIRC.

This mostly applies to large capacity cases utilizing a very small charge of powder.. say like using 6 gr of Unique in a 45-70 case.. a case designed for 70 gr of Black powder.. or 2 gr of Bullseye in a 44 magnum case.

Another option is to use a bulky powder like trail boss to completely fill the case but give the low velocity wanted.. I don't know that there is enough room in a 9mm to get enough Trail boss in it to make it do anything. Trail Boss is so fluffy, you can't put more than 3.5 gr in a 357 magnum or 5 gr in a 44 magnum. 9mm may not have the room for more than about a 1-1.5 gr of it.

Titegroup is a very fast pistol powder, and the 9mm doesn't have a lot of room internally to begin with. One thing to ensure cycling of semi-auto's is if you download your ammo, you can replace the recoil spring with something that is lighter than the factory spring. I know a few people who use lighter than normal recoil springs in their glocks and 1911's for ammo that is used for steel challenge.. Enough to make the bullet come out of the barrel, go 35 yards, and ring the steel, but not much else.

One gent has a glock so light that you can nearly rack the slide by flicking the gun forward.. it is light enough that the gun will come out of battery if you aren't careful.. but it's important that you use only the light ammo in it, otherwise you will damage the gun if running standard ammo in it.

You can reliably go down to about 600 fps without fear of sticking a bullet as long as you stick with a powder that will build enough pressure to get the bullet clear of the barrel. Titegroup, Bullseye, 231, Red Dot, 700X, and the like are all fast enough to get you up to pressure and get that bullet downrange.

[Sunday]

There is a good write up about loading below start load levels in the Lee 2nd edition. Essentially, based on input from people that know at Hodgdon and his decades of experience, there is no real world basis for the urban legends of pressure spikes, flash over, shaped charge, etc. theories regarding loading below recommended start levels.

Lee takes it even further and has load tables for many popular rifle cartridges (like 308, 30-06, 30-30, etc.) with loads down as far as 50% below start levels and what the velocities will be. This is with powder that is far slower burning than you will be using in your 9mm.

Using the rules of tumb provided by Lee, you can load your Titegroup down as low as you want, you will know when you have gone too low with your particular gun as it will not cycle properly (usually a stovepipe ejection failure). The one real world thing you have to worry about is the possibility of a double charge when loading very small loads, as it may be less visable that you have two charges in the case.

Of course, being the internet, someone will be along soon to tell you how they were at the range and a guy blew his gun up by loading only .2's of a grain below the start level in his Lyman manual... but then, you would not believe how many people in America believe 9/11 was a CIA operation as well.

I still wonder why Bill Clinton turned down an office in the WTC building.

[noylj]

Why are we suffering from urban legends?
The problem with low charge weights starts with 296/H110 and slower powders.
You can load shotgun and pistol powders as low as you want.
There has never been any laboratory proof that pressure spikes due to "all the powder igniting at once."
The basic rule for downloading for the past 100 years has been to go to a faster powder as you load down.
The slower powders will not properly ignite without sufficient pressure generation. The load will not KB. It will stick a bullet in the barrel and possibly lodge melter powder in the case or barrel.
You can load TightGroup down as low as you want.
Starting loads are NOT minimum loads. They are loads generally set at some percentage below max and sufficient to cycle the gun.

[rsrocket1]

I've loaded 40S&W down to 2.5g of Red Dot which is similar to Tightgroup in that its a fast burning powder that gets the chamber pressures up there quickly to seal off the gases. It's great for lower recoil loads even though you cannot get maximum velocity loads without going over pressure.

XDrox describes the progression perfectly. At 2.5g the bullets shot out fine, but I got 1 stovepipe and the slide did not lock on the last round. At 2.8g I got perfect cycling, but the cases kept ejecting and landing on my head. Not a problem with a hat and goggles

There are tricks to loading down even further such as using a lighter recoil spring, but I wouldn't do that. Too much chance of mixing up springs or shooting with the wrong spring in the gun.

I would recommend making at least 10 rounds each with a couple tenths of a grain less in each batch, then trying them out until you start getting less than 100% cycling, then move back up a couple of tenths from there until you are sure you can get at least 10 shots off with perfect cycling. My guess is that you will probably be able to get down to about 3.5g Tightgroup in your 9mm and still have some margin.

The problem with Trail Boss is that it's too fluffy for 9mm. There is a guy on You Tube who tried it in his 9mm and it wouldn't cycle the gun. You can't get more than about 3.3 grains in the 9mm case before you start compressing it and Trail Boss isn't a powder that should be compressed.

[SixPointEight]

I've loaded 40S&W down to 2.5g of Red Dot which is similar to Tightgroup in that its a fast burning powder that gets the chamber pressures up there quickly to seal off the gases. It's great for lower recoil loads even though you cannot get maximum velocity loads without going over pressure.

XDrox describes the progression perfectly. At 2.5g the bullets shot out fine, but I got 1 stovepipe and the slide did not lock on the last round. At 2.8g I got perfect cycling, but the cases kept ejecting and landing on my head. Not a problem with a hat and goggles

There are tricks to loading down even further such as using a lighter recoil spring, but I wouldn't do that. Too much chance of mixing up springs or shooting with the wrong spring in the gun.

I would recommend making at least 10 rounds each with a couple tenths of a grain less in each batch, then trying them out until you start getting less than 100% cycling, then move back up a couple of tenths from there until you are sure you can get at least 10 shots off with perfect cycling. My guess is that you will probably be able to get down to about 3.5g Tightgroup in your 9mm and still have some margin.

The problem with Trail Boss is that it's too fluffy for 9mm. There is a guy on You Tube who tried it in his 9mm and it wouldn't cycle the gun. You can't get more than about 3.3 grains in the 9mm case before you start compressing it and Trail Boss isn't a powder that should be compressed.

I played with red dot in a 5" XD40. I got down somewhere between 2.3-2.5gr before I started seeing issues with cycling. Brass literally dribbled out of the ejection port, and there was so little recoil that it was ridiculous.

[Fishslayer]

I've heard it may cause pressure/safety problems? And I've heard the opposite, as long as the charge is enough to force the slide all the way back and reload the next cartrige, you can go as low of a charge as you want...?

Thanks,
Edwin

You're referring to Secondary Explosion Effect, AKA flashover & a couple other names, I think.

This is mostly associated with light loads of slow powder in bottleneck rifle cartridges. And I don't believe it's ever been totally proven.

I did a lot of research on it when I started and wanted to load .38 levels in magnum cases. My conclusion was it's not a concern with fast powder in straight wall pistol cartridges.

[precisionshutr]

This is the first time i've been able to log back on...thank you for all the input, very credible information. I should be trying some loads soon and i'll post the results...