.40 Cal Recommended Load?

[bruss01]

Hello,

I'm a new reloader and let me explain, before any suggestions are offered, what I'm trying to accomplish - thanks.

My chosen defensive load is Winchester Ranger 180 grain. It shoots fine in both my .40 pistols - a CZ 75b and a 75b compact. I have chrono'd this round at around 1050 in the 75b and at 1020 out of the compact.

My first attempt to duplicate this load did match the chrono'd MV using 7.2 grains of Ramshot True Blue. However, the accuracy sucked in an EPIC way. All shots were extreme low and left. And my hand stung slightly after firing a few shots - I'm not recoil-shy but that just did not seem right. Obviously, even though the MV is dead on, something else is happening that makes this particular loading a NO-GO.

Two requests, oh internet sages... first, anyone who can explain the REASONS for what I'm experiencing will get my standing ovation and everlasting appreciation. Second, can anyone offer me a 180 gr .40 load that clocks over 1k fps that may stand a good chance of shooting better for me? - ETA: probably should add that I am testing to get the load right using up some FP lead bullets, before I go throwing any nice copper coated candy down range. Still the same grain weight.

Any tips greatly appreciated.

[vmwerks]

Low left is a classic problem - anticipating the shot... possibly jerking the trigger. The stinging hand would possibly cause me to aniticpate a bit too.

[bruss01]

Low left is a classic problem - anticipating the shot... possibly jerking the trigger. The stinging hand would possibly cause me to aniticpate a bit too.

And yet the Winchester ranger, same bullet weight and MV is on target from the same gun, same shooter. If that's so at the very least it requires a heap more explanation.

[stand125]

Maybe since it was a new load your reaction was anticipation without realizing it.

[GSwain]

Wait, so you are loading lead to save money before you load jacketed? Did I read that correctly? If so, you should know that lead and jacketed use different data. That sounds like a fairly hot load though, and 40 is a bit of a snappy cartridge. I had some issues shooting low left then I changed out the grips on my sig, making it more comfortable to hold and a little more recoil friendly, now groups are right back where they should be. If all your shots are going low left, that means the ammo is consistent, you are probably flinching. Can you have a friend watch the muzzle when you shoot (from a safe place) and see if they notice a flinch?

[Bill Steele]

7.2 grains of True Blue seems like a very hot load for 180gr lead in .40S&W.

Did you check for signs of pressure?

I have experienced different felt recoil for similar velocities using different powders (i.e. same weight bullet, same caliber, same gun, etc.). Perhaps owing to different burn rate characteristics, or maybe just my imagination. Given that physics pretty much governs the reality of energy and mass, I think any differences in felt recoil with different powders probably is more a timing thing.

VV-3N37 or VV-N340 will get you into that velocity range with 180gr lead, you can download the VV load guide from their web site.

[bruss01]

One thing that occurred to me was the burn rate... If the felt recoil is stronger with one load over another but the MV is the same, would a slower or a faster powder, loaded to the same MV, make a difference in the felt recoil?

[Bill Steele]

OK, curiosity got the best of me and I went online and looked at the Ramshot True Blue load data. The following is copied directly from their online load data:

True Blue 180 LC TC 5.1 853 5.7 948 34,050 1.120

Personally, I would not shoot that 7.2gr load any further. At 1.5grs over max load, just bad groups and a stinging hand would have to be called a "good outcome".

[bruss01]

OK, curiosity got the best of me and I went online and looked at the Ramshot True Blue load data. The following is copied directly from their online load data:

True Blue 180 LC TC 5.1 853 5.7 948 34,050 1.120

Personally, I would not shoot that 7.2gr load any further. At 1.5grs over max load, just bad groups and a stinging hand would have to be called a "good outcome".

Well, I don't have Ramshot's book in front of me, but I do have "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm & .40 S&W" and on page 53 of this book I see True Blue listed with loadings of 5.8 (800) 6.1 (850) 6.5 (900) 6.8 (950) 7.2 (1000) and 7.5 (1050). So by this book I am a good .3 grains UNDER a max load. I don't want to go max or super-max loads... I just want to match the factory ammo I'm using for defensive purposes.

[rsrocket1]

I ran a couple mags full of 7.0g Power Pistol under 180g Bear Creek moly coated lead RNFP bullets COL 1.135 and averaged 1060 fps out of a 4.25" M&P40 to see just how fast a "full load" will go. QL says it's still 25% below max pressure, but the recoil and flip are not the kind of things you want to practice with all day long.

I'm starting to learn that when practicing with a moderate load, you will still get the recoil and flip that dry firing will never duplicate so you are getting the trigger control you need. There seems to be no reason to shoot 100 rounds of full house loads to keep in practice.

The next time you practice, you might try shooting 5-10 full house loads, then shoot a bunch of 800-900fps mid range loads.

If you insist on duplicating your carry loads, you might just load a bunch of progressively lower loads of True Blue until you "feel" like your reloads shoot like your carry loads. After all, that's the object isn't it?

As for accuracy. Shoot some of your reloads from a bench rest (sandbags) and see if its you or the cartridges that are making the bullets go low-left.

[Bill Steele]

Well, I don't have Ramshot's book in front of me, but I do have "The Complete Reloading Manual for the 10mm & .40 S&W" and on page 53 of this book I see True Blue listed with loadings of 5.8 (800) 6.1 (850) 6.5 (900) 6.8 (950) 7.2 (1000) and 7.5 (1050). So by this book I am a good .3 grains UNDER a max load. I don't want to go max or super-max loads... I just want to match the factory ammo I'm using for defensive purposes.

You can get the Ramshot load data online here (page 5):

http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ramshot_handgun_rifle.pdf

I tend to take the manufacurers load data pretty seriously, but it is your gun.

Good luck.

[bruss01]

You can get the Ramshot load data online here (page 5):

http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ramshot_handgun_rifle.pdf

I tend to take the manufacurers load data pretty seriously, but it is your gun.

Good luck.

Bill, it wasn't my intention to contradict you... just saying, I didn't pull that load out of the air, or some other less-savory place. I took it from a printed load manual, and it did not appear to be a max load, even. We've heard the old-time reloaders talk about how the manuals have been "downloaded" over the years as manufacturers give themselves an ever widening margin for safety, maybe that's what you and I are observing here?

[Bill Steele]

Bill, it wasn't my intention to contradict you... just saying, I didn't pull that load out of the air, or some other less-savory place. I took it from a printed load manual, and it did not appear to be a max load, even. We've heard the old-time reloaders talk about how the manuals have been "downloaded" over the years as manufacturers give themselves an ever widening margin for safety, maybe that's what you and I are observing here?

Same here, I just wanted to point out that the manufacturer's load data greatly differed from the load data you were using. When I read that, coupled with your stinging hand, thought it might be something you might want to consider.

I load a lot of VV powders. A few of their powders, very close to the same burn rate as True Blue, will get your 180gr lead bullets to your target velocities, so maybe the load data you are using is fine.

Call me overly cautious, but I rarely will load above what a manufacturer rates as max, unless I am real comfortable and experienced with the powder and how it reacts near max levels in the caliber I am loading. Some powders are pretty linear, some are very squirrelly around the knee of the pressure curve.

Good luck on finding your ideal load for that .40.