Insane .357 magnum ammo

[JohnZ]

I was on Able ammo and I saw this winchester ammo, the claim is a 158gr. bullet with a velocity of 1830 fps! 1175 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy! Is this possible?

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/winchester-super-centerfire-rifle-ammunition-x3575p-remington-jacketed-soft-point-1830-rdbx-p-74653.html

Has anyone shot this ammo that can verify these claims. I am wondering if this was a typo of some sort.

[Fishslayer]

It's listed as rifle ammunition. Maybe a 20-something inch barrel & lots fo really slow powder?

Might be interesting in a 4" barrel. Somebody ELSE'S 4" barrel...

[24Sailor]

The ammo wont achieve those numbers if fired from a handgun. Probably more in the neighborhood of 1200 -1250 fps in a 6" barrel. Winchester uses W296 in their .357 / .44 mag. factory ammo. If you handload and shoot a .357 with a healthy charge of 15 to 16 grains of W296 and a 158 grain jacketed bullet from a 6" handgun you'll get a pretty nice muzzle flash. This is because W296 is a slow burning propellant and hasn't finished the burn as the bullet leaves the muzzle. As you increase the barrel length more velocity is achieved up to the point where the powder burns off before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

[CSACANNONEER]

The ammo wont achieve those numbers if fired from a handgun. Probably more in the neighborhood of 1200 -1250 fps in a 6" barrel. Winchester uses W296 in their .357 / .44 mag. factory ammo. If you handload and shoot a .357 with a healthy charge of 15 to 16 grains of W296 and a 158 grain jacketed bullet from a 6" handgun you'll get a pretty nice muzzle flash. This is because W296 is a slow burning propellant and hasn't finished the burn as the bullet leaves the muzzle. As you increase the barrel length more velocity is achieved up to the point where the powder burns off before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

I could be wrong but, I didn't think Winchester or any other extremely large ammo manufacturer used canister grade powder in their loads? Do you have a reliable source for your information? I'm just not sure why a large manufacturer would use more expensive canister grade powder when they can and do do burn rate tests on every new batch.

[24Sailor]

I could be wrong but, I didn't think Winchester or any other extremely large ammo manufacturer used canister grade powder in their loads? Do you have a reliable source for your information? I'm just not sure why a large manufacturer would use more expensive canister grade powder when they can and do do burn rate tests on every new batch.

I knew I read this somewhere ( Hodgdon now produces the Winchester powders apparently ).

Winchester makes the following Double-based, Ball powders:

WST -- Super-Target is for shotshells, .38 Special and .45 ACP.
WSL -- Super-Lite is for target loads. Good for 9mm, 40 S&W and a low charge weight propellant.
231 -- is Winchester's most popular reload propellant. It's a high energy pistol powder that is great for .38 Special, .45 ACP, and 9mm Standard Velocity Loads.
WSF -- Super-Field is popular for 20 guage AA Target Load and 12 guage 3/4 dram equivalent Super-X load.
New WAP -- Winchester Action Pistol is one of two powders introduced in 1994. Designed to be same as factory loaded in Winchester 9mm and .40 S&W.
540 -- Works well in 12 guage 1 1/4 oz. and 1 1/2 oz., 20 guage 1 oz. and 28 guage 3/4 oz. loads. Suitable for .38 Super, 9mm, .40 S&W and 10mm loads.
571 -- A magnum shotshell propellant for high velocities in 12 guage 1 3/8 oz. and 1 1/2 oz. loads and other heavy field loads. Suitable for .38 Super, 9mm, 40 S&W and 10mm loads.
296 -- developed for Winchester factory loaded .357 magnum, .44 magnum and 410 bore. However 296 is NOT suitable for rifle cartridges.
748 -- Chosen by U.S. Military for 5.56 mm and 223 Remington. Also good for 30-30 and .308 cartridges.
760 is used to duplicate Winchester 30-06 factory loads. Also suitable for 7mm to 8mm loads and the new 30-06 Fail Safe bullet.
NEW WMR -- is the Winchester Magnum Rifle powder. Introduced in 1994, it's a good choice for 270 Win, 243 Win and 300 Win Mag and also can be used in 257 Roberts, 25-06, 280 Rem, and 338 Win Mag.

[Dark Mod]

1800+ Fps is insanity, even from a rifle that seems a bit gnarly. Kinda cool though, if thats standard velocity for a .357 out of a rifle then maybe its time i bought one of those Marlin lever action .357's

[r3dn3ck]

my speer manual shows 1800fps as somewhat pedestrian from a carbine load. I don't think it's anything much more special than any ol' tree-fiddy-seben hunting load.

If it's any consolation, the stoutest loads I've put down my 4" revolver were regular ol' winchester 125gn. Hornady personal defense line is very tame by comparison.

[longhairchris]

I forget where I saw it, but Winchester makes another magnum powder not normally sold to the public that they may use for factory loads: WC297.

Ok just found it: http://www.patsreloading.com

[CSACANNONEER]

I knew I read this somewhere ( Hodgdon now produces the Winchester powders apparently ).

Winchester makes the following Double-based, Ball powders:

WST -- Super-Target is for shotshells, .38 Special and .45 ACP.
WSL -- Super-Lite is for target loads. Good for 9mm, 40 S&W and a low charge weight propellant.
231 -- is Winchester's most popular reload propellant. It's a high energy pistol powder that is great for .38 Special, .45 ACP, and 9mm Standard Velocity Loads.
WSF -- Super-Field is popular for 20 guage AA Target Load and 12 guage 3/4 dram equivalent Super-X load.
New WAP -- Winchester Action Pistol is one of two powders introduced in 1994. Designed to be same as factory loaded in Winchester 9mm and .40 S&W.
540 -- Works well in 12 guage 1 1/4 oz. and 1 1/2 oz., 20 guage 1 oz. and 28 guage 3/4 oz. loads. Suitable for .38 Super, 9mm, .40 S&W and 10mm loads.
571 -- A magnum shotshell propellant for high velocities in 12 guage 1 3/8 oz. and 1 1/2 oz. loads and other heavy field loads. Suitable for .38 Super, 9mm, 40 S&W and 10mm loads.
296 -- developed for Winchester factory loaded .357 magnum, .44 magnum and 410 bore. However 296 is NOT suitable for rifle cartridges.
748 -- Chosen by U.S. Military for 5.56 mm and 223 Remington. Also good for 30-30 and .308 cartridges.
760 is used to duplicate Winchester 30-06 factory loads. Also suitable for 7mm to 8mm loads and the new 30-06 Fail Safe bullet.
NEW WMR -- is the Winchester Magnum Rifle powder. Introduced in 1994, it's a good choice for 270 Win, 243 Win and 300 Win Mag and also can be used in 257 Roberts, 25-06, 280 Rem, and 338 Win Mag.

I wonder if they actually use canister grade 296 or not. I guess this is a perfevt question to ask them at the SHOT show.

[ojisan]

Back in the day my buddy had an IMI Timberwolf pump action rifle chambered in .357 Mag.
We loaded 125g jacketed bullets up to a chronographed 2,000 FPS...the same velocity as an M1 Carbine but with a heavier, better bullet.
So, I can see a 158g at 1830FPS...if fired from a rifle length barrel.

[Ripon83]

This is why I bought a 24 inch lever instead of those short 16's they kept selling for years.....thanks Rossi.

[ireload]

I refered to my Speer #13 manual. Fired out of a 18" Marlin 1894 carbine using a W296 powder at max load of 14.7 grains yields 1,564 fps. Unless Winchester has a special blend powder besides their cannister grade W296 that claimed velocity would be possible.

But on the flip side, I checked my Lyman and they have listed AA9 at 16 grains yields 1,800 fps also fired from a Marlin 1894 carbine.

[24Sailor]

Performing an experiment here. I loaded 50 rounds of .357 yesterday. Used new Starline brass, Federal GM200M primers, 15.5 gr. W296, 158 gr. Nosler JHP Sporting Handgun bullets # 44841, OAL 1.590" with taper crimp. Fired 20 rounds through my 1974 era Colt Python (6" barrel). Average chrono reading 10 feet from muzzle was 1130 fps. Air temperature 62 degrees, elevation 180' above sea level. Now I need to find someone in town with a carbine / rifle to chrono a few to complete the experiment. BTW the Hornady manual has this load clocking slightly above 1200 fps (in a Python with a 8" barrel 1 in 16" twist) and over 1600 fps (in a Rossi 92 with a 16" barrel, 1 in 16" twist) using their 158 gr. jacketed projectiles.