Does muzzle flash = wasted powder? (aka who's chrono'd this)

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,

Need some more data from people with a chronograph. Here's the story that got me thinking:

New load, new bullet, first time experimenting. Run the development, and the starting loads resulted in a pretty wild muzzle flash. By the time I got ot the max loads, I've never seen flash so bright. Makes me wonder if it'll be as impressive in the daytime, it's pretty darn bright.

The question though, is it wasted powder? conceptually yes, but the fact is I'm willing to bet someone has tested this with a chronograph, and charted that data. That they saw either:

Bullet speed rise with increased flash no matter what (pressure related alone)
Bullet speed rose, but with rapidly diminishing gains. (if not rapid, I'd classify as above)
Bullet speed reached plateau, additional powder yielded no gains (aka flash = wasted powder)

So! ... who's tested it?

[joelogic]

Not sure if anyone has tracked data but yes the bigger the fire ball the more wasted pressure against the bullet since the powder is still burning while exiting the barrel. Best case is all powder burns while bullet is in barrel.

Example is for .223 the shorter the barrel the more muzzle flash. Less distance/time to burn powder.

[Whiterabbit]

See, that's what logic would suggest, but there are other factors too. For example, more powder, more pressure. With ALL other things equal, that means more speed, yes?

That's why I want someone who's taken data.

[rsrocket1]

If the barrel is shorter, there may be more muzzle flash and there is nothing you can do about it other than switching powders. Some powders such as Power Pistol flash a lot, but are the best powders for reaching max velocities with certain bullets. A powder like Unique has flash suppresents to minimize the flash, but are still slow enough to spit out a bunch of unburned flakes if the pressures aren't high enough.

A fast powder such as Clays or Red Dot burn up within less than an inch of the bullet leaving the case. Is that the most efficient? Yes, but the chamber pressure has reached its peak much quicker and you simply can't get as much muzzle velocities with these powders.

Example:
357 Magnum 4" barrel 158 grain Lead RN bullet going for max mv while keeping max pressure at 26,000 psi

4.0 grains of Hodgdon Clays is completely burned when the bullet has moved 0.4" down the barrel. MV at exit is 867 fps. That's the max safe charge with 25% margin.

7.9 grains of Power Pistol gives you the same chamber pressure but only 91% has burned by the time the bullet exits the muzzle and the MV is 1079 fps probably with a monster fireball along with it.

The fireball is not only unburned powder, but also partly consumed chemicals that ignite when they expand into a more Oxygen rich environment.

So, no it's not wasted powder if you need it to drive the bullet at the speed you want.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm worried that powder switching might affect the data. That speed, or energy, or pressure might be what changes both speed and muzzle flash, not simply a single variable test of powder quantity vs speed.

[rsrocket1]

OK, I thought you were trying to say that with a particular powder, you thought you were being inefficient when you see muzzle flash because you thought too much was being spit out and lit. In fact, if you don't get 100% burn, a lot of times, the powder does not flash. When I started reloading 45ACP, I started with very low charges of Unique which is not a good powder for low charges. After a good long session at the range, I would sweep up enough unburned powder in front of the bench to load up another case.

When I upped the charge to a good working pressure and got up around military harball velocities (and recoil), there was almost no powder flakes laying on the floor after sweeping up. So with that powder more charge => more pressure => better efficiency.

Google up images for muzzle flash. You'll see that many images show burning gasses coming out of the gun. A couple show what look like sparks flying out. Those are shots of burning particles of powder igniting outside the barrel.

[bubbapug1]

I've tested this out.

I have a Desert Eagle. I used H110 for a long time for my DE as I heard it was "the" powder for the deagle in terms of gas production and cycling.

I also noticed it had a one hell of a report and a lot of muzzle flash, more like a fire ball.

I used some true blue too, and noticed not so much noise, and no muzzle flash, but I use tru blue for 9mm major and don't have a lot of it, so I bought some accurate #9 from a guy in the reloading section for dirt cheap prices.

It too loaded up nicely, cycled well, but didn't produce any flash and less noise than the H110.

I took the #9 loads and the H110 loads to Burro and did a chrony test on them. All loads used 240 grain bullets, soft points, copper jackets.

I used 22 grains of H110, and the average velocity at 10 feet was 1093 fps
The flash is spectacular, and the boom draws a crowd too!! The recoil is heavy.

I used 18 grains of #9. Average velocity was 1080 fps, very little flash, normal boom, like a 45 acp, and recoil was also like a 45 1911 with WWB.

The H110 is a much slower powder, and my assumption, which could be wrong, is the powder is still burning when the bullet exits the barrel resulting in flame and noise. Perhaps with a longer barrel the velocity would increase more than the Accurate #9, but I don't have a rifle for 44 mag to test my idea.

If I want to clear the lane next to me I shoot the H110, but if I want to shoot more accurately I just use the #9 loads.

All of that BS about how you need a large gas producer to run a DE is also hogwash. Once you install the new plastic extractor spring the gun will run on anything from H110 to red dot. I have found the medium powder to produce the most comfortable load to shoot, hence the #9.

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks bubbapug!

It's almost exactly what I was hoping for. Did you happen to test multiple powder charges of H110, or multiple powder charges of #9?

[bohoki]

no its not wasted it was used to the best of its ability

just look at battleships fire their guns do you think the navy is wasting a bag of powder

[Munk]

Bullet speed rose, but with rapidly diminishing gains. (if not rapid, I'd classify as above)

It's along these lines. The powder isn't wasted per se, but it is inefficiently used. I guess on a scale of FPS/GrainsOfPowder, you'll see the FPS continue to rise (along with pressure) but each extra foot will require increasing amounts of powder.

Although I imagine there is a plateau somewhere related to capacity and bullet integrity... which ends with a pipebomb.

[freonr22]

Quickload anyone?

[rsrocket1]

Quickload anyone?

Been there did that. OP wants actual tests.

[GeoffLinder]

At the point where increased charge weight stops giving linear increase in velocity you are wasting powder with THAT powder. Different powders flash more or less even at same pressure/velocity points. Nightime/dark flash results are very dramatic, daytime are not.

[xfer42]

I have not chrono'd loads. This is just for more thought-

If you are going to get the most energy from the round, then you are either going to:
"waste" powder or "waste" barrel length.


The slower burning powders will maintain a higher pressure at the muzzle, making better use of the barrel length. This is all good for velocity, but high muzzle pressure can alter the trajectory of the bullet once it leaves the barrel. This is example data from quickload (DO NOT USE THIS... I JUST QUICKLY PLUGGED IN SOME NUMBERS).

Cal: .44 Remington Magnum
Barrel Length: 7.5in
Bullet: 240 grain

Slow burning powder:
25 grains of H110
34328 PSI max
7063 PSI at the muzzle
Powder burnt: 82.86%
Velocity: 1490 fps

Fast burning powder:
10.6 grains of HP38
34898 PSI max
3141 PSI at the muzzle
Powder burnt: 100%
Velocity: 1219 fps

[bruceflinch]

Good Question & great info on the responses, Guys!