Giraud Annealing Machine

[afrancke]

This seems like a new and hitherto uncommercialized approach:

http://www.giraudtool.com/annealer1.htm

As Vince Shlomi might say, 'You know Giraud always makes good stuff" - discuss.

[CSACANNONEER]

Damn you! You just cost me 1/2 a truck payment that I don't have. Now, how do I get this in the house without my wife noticing it? It sure looks a lot simpler than the Ken Light annealer that I've been contemplating for a few years and I love my Giraud trimmer. So, I guess I'll get one of these soon.

[brando]

That's awesome!

[bumpo628]

Okay, that is cool.

[Pthfndr]

That is awesome. You could toss a bunch of brass in it and let it run while you're reloading other brass.

Hmmm, Doug does take credit cards IIRC.

[mattmcg]

Wow, that is nice. I almost bought the turntable annealer earlier this year but hesitated. That setup required that you insert a new case in each hole that rotated around until dropping into a bucket of water. This new Giraud really let's you step back and let the machine work.

In the words of Ron Popeil, "Set it and forget it!"

[ronas]

That a very unique machine. I can not tell how it's adjustable for time in flame or position of flame.

I have Benchsource annealer and it does a very good job and is quite adjustable.

[Kiba]

I was going to order a Bench-Source annealer in a couple of weeks but saw Doug's new machine last night. Great and simple design and the built in case feeder is slick.

I just sent him an email to order one. It can keep my Giraud trimmer company.

[Maltese Falcon]

Is my understanding correct that to anneal softens the brass?

What is the advantage to doing this? Lengthen the reloading life of the case?

Does it have to be done every time you reload a spent cartridge or just now and then?

Many thanks!

.

[afrancke]

Is my understanding correct that to anneal softens the brass?

What is the advantage to doing this? Lengthen the reloading life of the case?

Does it have to be done every time you reload a spent cartridge or just now and then?

More experienced voices will supply correction and nuance, but yes, annealing softens (de-stresses and makes more ductile) brass. You do this because working brass (expanding, compressing, etc.) causes brass to become less ductile and embrittle, and of course what you want is not only for your brass to survive resizing but also for the forward portion of your brass to remain in a state that allows it to expand to seal the chamber without fracturing when fired. For rifle cartridges (where pressures are high and resizing works the brass each time you reload), annealing extends the life of the brass and presumably makes it easier to achieve consistent neck tension.

Recommendations run the gamut from "every time" to "why bother annealing - I'm just going to chuck the case after four or five firings anyway and my rifle is 2 - 3 MOA to begin with," etc. With this auto case feeding situation from Giraud, the question becomes why _not_ anneal every time? I suppose propane costs something, and if you get the temperatures wrong it could either be a waste (too cool: harmless) or a liability (too hot: hazard), but if you have it set up right then it's just the cost of propane, presumably.

[huckberry668]

all i can say is 'WOW'! if that thing can fix the case stretch, head separation, loose primer pockets and keep my brass working forever I'd buy one. Never found a need to anneal since they become unsafe/out of spec after 5 or 6 reloads anyway.

Just like 'break-in process', 'fire lapping', abrasive bore cleaner and SW Sigma, complete waste of good money.

[afrancke]

all i can say is 'WOW'! if that thing can fix the case stretch, head separation, loose primer pockets and keep my brass working forever I'd buy one. Never found a need to anneal since they become unsafe/out of spec after 5 or 6 reloads anyway.

Just like 'break-in process', 'fire lapping', abrasive bore cleaner and SW Sigma, complete waste of good money.

Brass annealing only is meant to treat the shoulder and neck, essentially - head separation and loose primer pockets are a problem on the other end, so yeah, this doesn't do much for that.

[CSACANNONEER]

all i can say is 'WOW'! if that thing can fix the case stretch, head separation, loose primer pockets and keep my brass working forever I'd buy one. Never found a need to anneal since they become unsafe/out of spec after 5 or 6 reloads anyway.

Just like 'break-in process', 'fire lapping', abrasive bore cleaner and SW Sigma, complete waste of good money.

Huh? What are cartridge you loading? Are you loading exceptionally hot loads? What type of action are you shooting them out of? If you only get 5-6 loads and then get case head separation, it sounds like you have other problems. Maybe, you are bumping the shoulder back too much? Maybe the gun you are shooting them from has a head space problem? I gotta say that I can get a good 20 uses out of decent 50BMG brass and countless uses out of straight walled pistol brass.

As far as you closing statement goes, it only goes to prove that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I know this guy who uses abrassive bore cleaner (JB RED paste, more abbrasive than the normal stuff and harder to find) and he has shot sub 2" groups at 1000 yards. He has tried jusst about every type of cleaning product he can and now uses this paste as part of his cleaning process because, it works. As far as the S&W Sigma comment goes, I guess you've only read about them on the internet. I've had mine for 12 years and have never had a problem with it. Sure, I've only run about 10,000 rounds through it and I have "better" and more expensive guns. But, it works as well or better than my Glock (which I really don't care for either). As far as barrel break in and fire lapping, both can be a waste of time or a great help. It depends on the individual barrel.

[huckberry668]

May be it'd help if we stay on topic. What I meant was bottle neck cases have other failure points than just the neck. The machine will serve those of us who want it for extreme accuracy or longivity of brass to a certain degree. There is a better use of time and money than annealing the necks for a novice reloaders and newbies. I dont' think annealing straight wall cases was ever intended nor part of this topic.

I threw my cases out normally after 5 or 6 reloads because they're out of 'my spec'. Run a pionty pick from inside bottom of the case up. if I feel there is deep enough stretch groove I throw it away. Some Federal 308 cases are known to have loose primer pockets after just a few reloads.

I only had case head separations from 1 barrel in my last 20 years of reloading, competing and shooting. An out of spec Douglas chambered barrel on my FAL broke 8 out of 10 cases and stretched all othe cases useless. I set the headspace tolerance at .001" but the diameter of the chamber was way over.

Sub 2" "groups" at 1000 yards, I'll believe it when I see it unless he is this guy: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...at-1000-yards/

Look at his gun, ammo and other records mentioned. There is no way he runs JB full length of the bore 'polishing' persistantly and not ruin the barrel. I bet he only scrubs the throat area where most fouling & carbin build up occurs. Does he anneal his 50cal cases? maybe 50bmg cases are worth annealing.

I've seen too many rifle, pistol barrels ruined by misuse of abrasive bore cleaners. I've seen muzzles/crowns polished to a bell, pistol bore larger in on half of bore than the other. a HS Precision built 300 WinMag shot 1" groups new but wouldn't shoot 3" at 200 yards after only 500 rounds from using JB to scrub the black out of the barrel every 10, 15 rounds. If you've seen the barrels I've seen under a bore scope and ruin barrels like I did with JB and other abrasives you'd know what i'm talking about.

The point is, JB or any abrasives shouldn't be used if barrel longivity is desired or if you don't know how to use it correctly. there are better cleaning solutions for the barrel than JB. I use JB Red to final lap the slide and frame of 1911s I work on.

I used Tubbs Final Polish on several barrels and gotten nothing like the claim. It just polished the bore bright with >100fps velocity loss and no accuracy improvement (Win Stealth II 308win). I've also heard/saw others used it with no improvement. Yes it cleans easier after but so what! Waste of money in my experience.

Bottomline, no abrasives down the bore. There isn't anything you can do with abrasives in the bore to improve what the factory million $ machines couldn't do.

Maybe it's bias from having shot PPC, Bianchi and other comp guns. I have sold and shot several Sigmas (as a dealer of 9 years) out of believe that the last one was a fluke... my conclusion was, there are many better overall alternatives I'd recommend than the Sigma. It's just not a easy gun to learn to shoot well and by definition of a target pistol it's a waste of money. The Sigma owners I know dumped theirs soon after.

sorry to be longwinded, just sharing what I've seen...

[Wrangler John]

May be it'd help if we stay on topic. What I meant was bottle neck cases have other failure points than just the neck. The machine will serve those of us who want it for extreme accuracy or longivity of brass to a certain degree. There is a better use of time and money than annealing the necks for a novice reloaders and newbies. I dont' think annealing straight wall cases was ever intended nor part of this topic.

I threw my cases out normally after 5 or 6 reloads because they're out of 'my spec'. Run a pionty pick from inside bottom of the case up. if I feel there is deep enough stretch groove I throw it away. Some Federal 308 cases are known to have loose primer pockets after just a few reloads.

I only had case head separations from 1 barrel in my last 20 years of reloading, competing and shooting. An out of spec Douglas chambered barrel on my FAL broke 8 out of 10 cases and stretched all othe cases useless. I set the headspace tolerance at .001" but the diameter of the chamber was way over.

Sub 2" "groups" at 1000 yards, I'll believe it when I see it unless he is this guy: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...at-1000-yards/

Look at his gun, ammo and other records mentioned. There is no way he runs JB full length of the bore 'polishing' persistantly and not ruin the barrel. I bet he only scrubs the throat area where most fouling & carbin build up occurs. Does he anneal his 50cal cases? maybe 50bmg cases are worth annealing.

I've seen too many rifle, pistol barrels ruined by misuse of abrasive bore cleaners. I've seen muzzles/crowns polished to a bell, pistol bore larger in on half of bore than the other. a HS Precision built 300 WinMag shot 1" groups new but wouldn't shoot 3" at 200 yards after only 500 rounds from using JB to scrub the black out of the barrel every 10, 15 rounds. If you've seen the barrels I've seen under a bore scope and ruin barrels like I did with JB and other abrasives you'd know what i'm talking about.

The point is, JB or any abrasives shouldn't be used if barrel longivity is desired or if you don't know how to use it correctly. there are better cleaning solutions for the barrel than JB. I use JB Red to final lap the slide and frame of 1911s I work on.

I used Tubbs Final Polish on several barrels and gotten nothing like the claim. It just polished the bore bright with >100fps velocity loss and no accuracy improvement (Win Stealth II 308win). I've also heard/saw others used it with no improvement. Yes it cleans easier after but so what! Waste of money in my experience.

Bottomline, no abrasives down the bore. There isn't anything you can do with abrasives in the bore to improve what the factory million $ machines couldn't do.

Maybe it's bias from having shot PPC, Bianchi and other comp guns. I have sold and shot several Sigmas (as a dealer of 9 years) out of believe that the last one was a fluke... my conclusion was, there are many better overall alternatives I'd recommend than the Sigma. It's just not a easy gun to learn to shoot well and by definition of a target pistol it's a waste of money. The Sigma owners I know dumped theirs soon after.

sorry to be longwinded, just sharing what I've seen...

Amen. ^^

I generally only anneal brass with wildcat cartridges that have been formed, trimmed, neck reamed, full length sized and fireformed, where the new neck is part of the old shoulder. If I want to anneal something else, then I simply spin them in a 1/4" drive deep socket placed in a variable speed drill, in front of a propane torch. Just place some 700* - 750* Tempilaq indicating paint in the neck and time how long it takes to melt, then count-time each subsequent case (usually takes 4 to 7 seconds). Drop the case from the socket into a bucket of water and I'm done. Cost = a few bucks for a set of cheap Chinese sockets and a drill adapter. Don't use your good Snap-On sockets.

Most split necks I encounter are new brass as they come from the factory, usually neck/shoulder folds that split on the first sizing and expanding, about a 2% rejection rate.

Other cause of split necks is ammo that has sat too long allowing the bullet to galvanically "cold weld" to the brass neck. I remembered this propensity of loaded brass when I tried to pull some handloads that were stored for a decade. They would slip out of the collet. They were pulled after seating the bullet deeper until a loud snap was heard as the weld broke free.

Winchester brass has proven to have the longest case life - somewhere around 24 loadings before failing, without annealing (article in a recent firearms magazine). So I consider annealing an unnecessary hassle, as brass is cheap, expendable and not worth the effort. Case life is made or broken in the sizing die.