Shotgun reloading struggles

[Pokerking]

I have been reloading 9mm .223 and my 30/30 for about 3 years now, but recently decided it was time to start reloading my shotgun shells for trap and skeet, especially since my son is now into it and I am using 3 times the shells I once was.

So I have a new Lee Load All 2 for 12ga.
I followed the charge chart and installed the 141 bushing for powder and the 1-1/8 bushing for shot.
I am using the following components

Powder = IMR 700x
primers = Winchester w209
Wads = remington FIG8S 1-1/8 oz. wad
Shot = 7.5
Hulls = mostly my once shot Fiocchi hulls original load in these was 7.5 1-1/8, 2-3/4 shells

I am having 2 major problems that I can't seem to get around.

1. final crimp is too deep and leaves me with a hole in the top center where shot can and does actually come out. as if I don't have enough of some component inside..
2. I can see the powder creeping up the sides between the hull and the wad.

From what I have read both these problems could be from incorrect wads? but I cant find anywhere that tells me that the wads I am using should not work? or what wad 5 should use! so before I went out and bought one of every wads ever made and try them all. I thought I would pose the question here for any experts that have been reloading shotgun shells.

is my overall recipe combination incorrect? would you change other components first or as well?

thanks for any assistance in solving my issues.

PK

[incredablehefey]

you can try over shot cards to fix the crimp problem, or try and adjust the crimp head

the powder between the the hull and the wad is normal(kinda), you could try different powder to see if that helps but as long as you are using the correct wads and the hulls aren't bulged i wouldn't worry about it too much

also one last thing, i reloaded my bird shot for years and imo components have gotten too expensive for me to bother reloading anything other than slugs, but have fun and be safe

[bumpo628]

A couple of questions first:
1. How many grains of powder does that bushing drop?
2. Are these Fiocchi hulls designed for reloading? Sometimes the cheapy trap hulls don't crimp very well.

You could be pushing down too hard when you crimp. Try less pressure.

As you said, it could also be the wrong wad. I looked at the hodgdon reloading data center and I didn't see the wad that you listed. Based on the data, I would try the Winchester WAA12 wad (or it's ClayBuster equivalent).

Take a look here and punch in all of your info:

http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp

My final recommendation would be to get some Winchester AA or Remington STS hulls at some point in the future. There is a lot more data out there and you'll be able to use those wads that you already have.

If you get some Winchester AA hulls, here are some recipes:
Lead Shot 12 1 1/8 oz. 700-X Win. 209 Rem. FIG. 8 15.5 8,300 PSI 1100
Lead Shot 12 1 1/8 oz. 700-X Win. 209 Rem. FIG. 8 16.5 9,000 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 1 1/8 oz. 700-X Win. 209 Rem. FIG. 8 18 10,200 PSI 1200
Lead Shot 12 1 1/8 oz. 700-X Win. 209 Rem. FIG. 8 19.5 11,400 PSI 1250

With the Remington STS:
Lead Shot 12 1 1/8 oz. 700-X Win. 209 Rem. FIG. 8 15.5 8,500 PSI 1100
Lead Shot 12 1 1/8 oz. 700-X Win. 209 Rem. FIG. 8 16.5 9,400 PSI 1150
Lead Shot 12 1 1/8 oz. 700-X Win. 209 Rem. FIG. 8 18 10,800 PSI 1200

[Pokerking]

Thanks for the info and help.

the bushing is putting out about 17.4grn of powder
It is possible the hull is a piece of crap. (read on)

Per your recommendation, I dug through my pile of hulls that I have and found a couple Win AA, red and a couple grey, I also found 2 STS hulls in the pile.

All of these hulls loaded with no problems, perfect crimp.

It appears that your possible doubt about the Fiocchi Hull may have been my real problem, and not the wads after-all.

So I am retooling my components:
Win AA hulls
1-1/8
win209
Fig8 (till I am out) then I will go to the WAA12
close to 18.5grn as I prefer close to 1200-1250
IMR 700x (but thinking of going Red Dot for the next round to see how I like that)

again thanks for the help, I think I may be on my way now,

-PK

[bumpo628]

Thanks for the info and help.

the bushing is putting out about 17.4grn of powder
It is possible the hull is a piece of crap. (read on)

Per your recommendation, I dug through my pile of hulls that I have and found a couple Win AA, red and a couple grey, I also found 2 STS hulls in the pile.

All of these hulls loaded with no problems, perfect crimp.

It appears that your possible doubt about the Fiocchi Hull may have been my real problem, and not the wads after-all.

So I am retooling my components:
Win AA hulls
1-1/8
win209
Fig8 (till I am out) then I will go to the WAA12
close to 18.5grn as I prefer close to 1200-1250
IMR 700x (but thinking of going Red Dot for the next round to see how I like that)

again thanks for the help, I think I may be on my way now,

-PK

The Fiocchi hulls may have worked if you had the proper wad.
However, you should really avoid reloading cheap hulls more than one time anyway. The basewads could come loose and kaboom your gun on the next shot.

Looks like you've got a good recipe going there: 1-1/8, AA, WAA12, Win209.

Instead of Red Dot, you should get some Promo. It is actually the same powder, just that it is cheaper per pound and sold only in 8lb jugs. You can use load data for Red Dot or Promo. Be sure to request a copy of the Alliant powder manual now, so that you have it before you run out of 700-x. You can download it too, but I like the paper copy.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog.aspx

You can also try substituting Cheddite primers for the Win209. They usually run about $25 per 1000 instead of $30.
EDIT: I was told by the owner of Philips Wholesale that Cheddite primers are designed to be replacements for Win209's.

You can save a little money on the wads by buying the Claybuster WAA12 wads too, instead of the Winchester brand. Same thing, different price.

[Revoman]

Don't take this the wrong way please, but I would not deviate from the recipes as given via manuals or online. Each component 'fits' with a specific shell/wad/powder/shot load combination and should be followed to the 'T'. That's why it's called a recipe. There are too many variables that can go wrong while reloading anything as you probably already know by loading metallic. Metallic is a little more forgiving in the component department.

Stick to those recommended recipes and you should be golden.

Once you are more versed at loading shotshells, then you might venture into a few unknowns, but no without verification of some sort that they make no harm. In other words, I wouldn't take online information verbatim without verification from someone that has experience with that particular load, especially if it seemed to be out of bounds in the least.

I have reloaded shotshells for a long time, and still do not deviate from the loads as given within those manuals or online information.

[sargenv]

Fiocchi may need a wad that is not made for a taper hull.. The AA and STS hulls are tapered internally, the Fiocchi is a straight wall hull similar to the Federal tubes.. that could be a reason for the "leakage" of powder granules.. I have a LOT of the light lavender Fiocchi hulls, they are good hulls to reload. Which reloader are you using to load these on? There is a setting specific to MEC reloaders on how deep the center section gets crimped. I'd advise you consult your instruction manual for your press, there is likely something you are overlooking.

[Pokerking]

no, I certainly would never take any help the wrong way and appreciate all opinions and assistance. I couldn't agree more about following documented recipes, the recipe I was following was documented on the IMR site for the Fiocchi hull, but really wasn't working.

the new recipe that was posted originally by Bumpo is straight from the Hodgdon site for the AA hull. the powder, primer, wad (the fig and the WAA) are both listed in the recipe.

thank you for the help and thoughts on being safe and he advice to stay on guidelines for reloading shotshells.

The press is the Load All 2, I followed the charge chart to the T and the scale verified the powder charge. still not sure wy they just don't crimp right. But in the process of being safe and using a documented recipe, i will move to the AA hull until I start to get a comfort level with the whole process.

Thank everyone for your thoughts.

[BigBronco]

1 &1/8 oz 7.5 with 18.5 gr red dot has been my favorite load for years.

[Pokerking]

1 &1/8 oz 7.5 with 18.5 gr red dot has been my favorite load for years.

Do you use a specific Hull? have you had good and bad experiences based on hull changes?

Thanks
PK

[sargenv]

The load all II doesn't have any real settings, I would use a .090" overshot card and call it good. It will have no effect pressure wise on the load and will seal the crimp so that there is no shot leakage. I had one of these in 20 gauge years ago.. which was stolen.. I promptly picked up a Sizemaster in 20 and now have three of them.. 10, 12, and 20.. Funny thing about the 10 gauge press is that I have hulls, a bit of ammo, and the press, but no gun yet... soon I hope

[gab909]

Dump the fiocchi's and go to wally world and buy some remington game club Promo packs. The green ones. If you spend a little time at the range, you can usually pick up a ton of these for free. They will load the same as the Winchester AA's. If you are having good luck with the 700X then stick with it. Promo may run a little cheaper, but if you are only loading 200-300 a week, you may want to invest in a better reloader first, once you start shooting a little more.

[JagerDog]

First, that Lee LA II isn't very friendly and has basically zero adjustment.

Unfortunately, there's lots of "published" loads which don't really fit very well.

Fiocchi shells can vary in base wad height. They do tend to be "roomy", so you may find yourself using 1oz spec'd wad for 1-1/8oz, etc.

With straight wall hulls you're better off with wads made for straight wall hulls. Perhaps a Federal. Larger grain size can help abate powder migration. 700X has pretty big flakes/grains though.

Some folks will add a Cheerio or two on top to make a load fit better. Really better off with a well fitting load, but that does work.

[Pokerking]

Update:

I bought a bunch... 5 cases of Winchester AA 7.5 1-1/8 on a great deal. I talked them down to $5.50 a box if I bought 5 cases, additionally Winchester has a promo running right now where you get $2.00 per box rebate. Making them effectively $3.50 per box so I bought as much as I could get the rebate for (50 was the max).

It was the only change I made to my recipe, we went out and shot over 200 of them. we reloaded them the following week and went out again last weekend and they were flawless.

The AA hull reloaded like a champ. I had to be careful not to put too much pressure when inserting the hull, and when done correctly they crimped like they were brand new. and shot like they were factory made.

the Lee Load All 2, while it doesn't allow for adjustments also is very consistent in it's loads, for the first 200 I checked powder weight every 20 loads sometimes even more, and it was always 17.3 or 17.4, so adjustments were never needed.

Thanks everyone for your help and ideas. all-in-all my problem was fixed by changing the hull and still using all the same components I started with.

Again, Thanks