Hornady LNL - Couple of questions

[nicitaja]

setup:

>7000 serial # LNL press
Hornady .223 (2 die, full length size/decap in first, seat in 2nd die) New Dimension Nitrate Dies (newest of new dies, but still you gotta lube bottle-neck)

#1. I setup the press as I thought I best understood, from reading and watching the video, but I still have some problems, I have a good powder drop, but right now Im not even priming or dumping powder, was attempting to get bullet seat to correct COL length of round (also learned that the "depth" on the die is actually not the same for all lead, so unlike the sizer/decap, its NOT set consistant on the bullet depth, maybe on the main die body, but not on the depth adjustment).

Anyways, when I was setting up my depth, instructions said to put bullet on brass, raise ram all the way up, and then screw depth adjustment down until you feel it hit the bullet. That was easy, so I screwed it in a few more turns and noticed that I was still not pushing the bullet in enough, at this time, I raised the ram, and started to adjust the seating part of the die, I noticed that with just my fingers, I was able to drop the seating portion of the die down and push the entire bullet into the case, obviously my case neck is not sized correctly.

So I pulled out the first die, and decided to measure the expander part, it measures .2289 to .223 depending on the calipers or mich that I am using, both show closer to .223 that .222 and I was under the assumption that I was at max .222 on the expander and even maybe a little smaller like .2218 or so, anyways. I know from reading on the forums that others have had issues with expander ball thingie across all the major manufactures, so I assume I will call hornday on this one.

I was attempting to seat 55gr Hornady XTP (the 1000 free with press) as well as some bulk berry's, both with cannelures), but if I even attempt to get any of the cannelure at the tip of the neck, the bullet gets looser than if not as deep or pushed a little more deep past the cannelure the round is held tighter, but still can be turned by a STRONG finger grab and easily pushed into the case.

Also, so far, When I pull the bullet out, I wanted to mention that attempting to resize that case, gets hung 100% of the time and requires me to extract it (just noting, not sure if I should be able to resize or not, but it gets hung no matter what).

So, here are a few more questions, I went back to the instructions to start over, and the instructions tell me to raise the press to the top without camming over, but my ram raises to full height and the level drops to its fully down position, it doesn't raise and then slightly drop, it doesn't drop until the up stroke of the lever no matter what, so maybe this is a situation that happened in the older press, or other press models, but I cant see how I could get it to cam over, I pull the lever down and it raises to full height and stays there while the lever rests all the way down.

But my next question, it then tells me to lower the die until it makes contact with the top of the shell plate holder, however, each shell plate is machined out in this area, and I dont know if they mean to project across the top of the plate or to actually lower it into the machined out recess when the bullet is held in the attachement, (if you dont understand, take a quick look at a LNL shell plate, you'll see a star type pattern where its machined about 1/8" of the material out where each station die would drop when ram is raised), am I supposed to be lowering die body until it touches the shell plate (meaning extending lower than the shell plate at its thickest point touching the part of the shell plate it would touch physically when lowered). I know Im talking in circles, I know if you know the answer you understand the question. Thanks.

So anyways, thanks in advance for any help. so to repeat myself, I am interesting in knowing if I should be able to resize a case after it has had a bullet seated in it (without expanding from being fired), am asking what the expander max size should be (and if thats the only thing that could be causing my lack of correctly sized necks (could it also be the die body somehow?), and where to exactly lower the die body to touch the shell plate head.

Thanks again...

-John

[Fyathyrio]

Yes, screw the dies down until they touch the shell plate...into the machined recess. When you screw them in further then just touching, this will provide resistance to fully raising the ram and provide the "cam over" action mentioned.

Try that to start, and see if it doesn't clear up the other issues mentioned...you're not resizing the brass properly since it's not going all the way into the die. This is likely causing the loose necks.

[vwynn]

question, what do yall mean with the term "cam over"??

[UserM4]

question, what do yall mean with the term "cam over"??

It means when the shell plate indexes/rotates to the next station. I think.... lol.

[Harbinger]

It means when the shell plate indexes/rotates to the next station. I think.... lol.

No...

Cam over happens when the press touches the die at near full stroke... proceeds a bit more, then the mechanical linkage 'cams over' and does not allow for additional pressure.

The above procedure is essential in most presses for getting a FULL resize on a piece of brass. This is why manuals tell you to adjust the resizing die by raising the press to full stroke, cranking down the die until it touches the shell holder, backing off the press, then cranking the die another 1/4 turn.

Mike

[Fyathyrio]

Cam over basically means the shell plate hits the dies on the upstroke, meets resistance that causes the handle (and ram) to nearly stop, then you apply a little additional force to push the ram/shell plate fully against the dies and ensure the shells completely enter the dies.

[rsrocket1]

Cam over means the ram goes to the "top of the hill", then travels a tiny bit over to the other side going "downhill" a little bit. This can put a very large amount of additional pressure on your press.

This is really not a good thing, but many presses including my LNL AP does it. For some it gives assurance that you went far enough. If you have carbide or nitride dies and you do what some manufacturers instruct by lowering the die until it touches the plate, then screw in an additional 1/4 turn, you run the risk of shattering the super hard but brittle dies. Steel dies have more give and are not damaged as easily as carbide/nitride dies.

Lee presses do not cam over so when they say lower the die until it touches the shell plate then screw in an additional 1/4-1/2 turn, you simply push until it stops and there is no cam over. The additional "turn" ensures the die contacts the plate at the top of the stroke when an actual case (with all its resistance) is in the press. If you run a case through the die, you should not see any space between the die and the shellplate and you shouldn't even be able to slide a piece of paper to touch the bullet case.

John,
if you lowered the dies until it reached the highest part of the shellplate, you didn't lower it nearly enough and you were not getting the shell up into the neck sizing portion of the die. You should be screwing in the die until it touches the plate at the very top of the stroke (not necessarily the end of the stroke if there is any "cam-over").
If you are getting 100% stuck cases, you are clearly not using enough case lube. A thin uniform coat along the entire case body (the straight long part) is much more important than the quantity of lube. Don't assume a thick band along the top of the case will spread down the case as the die is pressed, it doesn't. If your current lube is not satisfactory, try any type of lube you have around the house like Pam cooking spray, Dawn dishwashing liquid, new (not used) motor oil, Vaseline. They all work in a pinch. My favorite is Bag Balm, STP oil treatment or Lanolin diluted with Isopropyl alcohol (like Dillon spray lube). Remember, a uniform thin coat is much better than a splotchy thick job.

I think once you do a true full length resize, you'll find that you get adequate neck tension and you do not need to crimp the .223.

Good Luck.

[nicitaja]

Thanks for all the comments

Thanks for all the comments, I have been leaving them > 1/32" higher than I need to then, and to the 100% stuck cases, I havent had problems with the cases getting stuck the first "full length" resize, its 100% been stuck after I improperly resize, and then seat a bullet in that was too loose, took a pliers and pulled bullet out, and then tried to "full length resize" again. I already went and lowered the die till it touches the top of the shell plate, and then ran 1 through it and I'll be damed if the seated bullet is now tight and how it should be, I STILL was able to raise the bullet on the shell into the seating die, and then with my fingers adjust the bullet depth leaving the shell up in the die. (Of course its not easy, but with a really firm grip I can continue to turn the depth adjustment down and push the bullet all the way into the shell just about (or course, once its passed the halfway point and the bullet diameter gets smaller, you can feel the pressure fall off.)

Again, the bullets are now tight, and do not move and cant be moved with my fingers or cycleing them into the ar-15 (the bullet overall length is not changing from cycling through the clip into the chamber) etc, etc. So I feel confident, I checked them with vicegrips against some factory loads and they feel the same, so I think thats all working, I just wanted to mention that I can still adjust bullet depth by adjusting the die while the shell is all the way in the die, rather than having to lower the shell, make the adjustment, and then raise the shell to push the bullet in more like I expected I would need too, maybe I got a good grip or something. Im not crimping, so its just neck pressure, but again, the bullets are now as tight as some factory loads to best of my "testing" ability. But any comments on that?

Thanks to everyone.

John

Cam over means the ram goes to the "top of the hill", then travels a tiny bit over to the other side going "downhill" a little bit. This can put a very large amount of additional pressure on your press.

This is really not a good thing, but many presses including my LNL AP does it. For some it gives assurance that you went far enough. If you have carbide or nitride dies and you do what some manufacturers instruct by lowering the die until it touches the plate, then screw in an additional 1/4 turn, you run the risk of shattering the super hard but brittle dies. Steel dies have more give and are not damaged as easily as carbide/nitride dies.

Lee presses do not cam over so when they say lower the die until it touches the shell plate then screw in an additional 1/4-1/2 turn, you simply push until it stops and there is no cam over. The additional "turn" ensures the die contacts the plate at the top of the stroke when an actual case (with all its resistance) is in the press. If you run a case through the die, you should not see any space between the die and the shellplate and you shouldn't even be able to slide a piece of paper to touch the bullet case.

John,
if you lowered the dies until it reached the highest part of the shellplate, you didn't lower it nearly enough and you were not getting the shell up into the neck sizing portion of the die. You should be screwing in the die until it touches the plate at the very top of the stroke (not necessarily the end of the stroke if there is any "cam-over").
If you are getting 100% stuck cases, you are clearly not using enough case lube. A thin uniform coat along the entire case body (the straight long part) is much more important than the quantity of lube. Don't assume a thick band along the top of the case will spread down the case as the die is pressed, it doesn't. If your current lube is not satisfactory, try any type of lube you have around the house like Pam cooking spray, Dawn dishwashing liquid, new (not used) motor oil, Vaseline. They all work in a pinch. My favorite is Bag Balm, STP oil treatment or Lanolin diluted with Isopropyl alcohol (like Dillon spray lube). Remember, a uniform thin coat is much better than a splotchy thick job.

I think once you do a true full length resize, you'll find that you get adequate neck tension and you do not need to crimp the .223.

Good Luck.

[EL_NinO619]

Sorry I did not make it through your whole post, but "expander ball, die" Why are you expanding bottle neck cartridges?

Any ways I have two LnL's all you have to do is lower the die until it touches the indent part of the shell plate, then try a 1/8 turn to 1/2. You really don't need the cam over on the LnL, I don't and i re-size just fine.

[nicitaja]

Its my lack of terminology, the hornady rep told me to measure my expander ball. Its the part that you put the decaping pin into, and screw onto the rod that is in the full length resizing die, its what they call it was well. I assume that as the case is pushed up into the die, the decaping pin and expander ball enter the case, then the case continues up and is compressed and sized in the die, then on the way back down, the expander part pulls through and makes sure the opening is the correct size. Probably not what the next die or manufacture call it, but looking at my die packaging, Hornady calls it "Hornady’s Elliptical Expander/Decap Assembly" so thats what I was calling it.

Thanks for all the help guys, I got the parts all working correctly, I guess my only question is if I should be able to resize a case that already had a bullet pressed into it (and I removed the bullet from the shell without firing it). I have about 10 shells with no primer or powder in them, just used them as a test while making adjustments setting this all up. Should I be able to pull the bullet with a kinetic and then just toss the shells back into the bucket? I suppose I can just go out and try it, but previously, 100% of anything that had the bullet seated, then pulled and placed into station 1, would NOT go through the full length resizing/decaping die without hanging up (of course, it was also set incorrectly for every attempt).

[Fyathyrio]

I resize the cases I use for setup...

[rsrocket1]

No, you should not resize a bullet that has a projectile in it. You are effectively swaging the bullet in this case and that squeezes the bullet and deforms it. It doesn't hurt to pull the bullet with a kinetic hammer puller, empty out the powder (save it), decap the case with the FL resizing/decapping die (catch the primer as it goes down the tube) and reuse everything.

Something is wrong with your setup if you can't do a full length resize where the die goes all the way down without ending up with a stuck case. Are you sure you are properly lubing the case wall the entire straight length? (you don't need/don't want to get it on the shoulder and neck).

I use a single stage press to do my F/L resizing on bottleneck rifle cases because I can get a better feel of the process. Maybe you can do just the decapping/resizing step on one case at a time so that you aren't trying to charge and seat at the same time, or run just one shell at a time and run the LnL "turret" style.

[nicitaja]

I must be confusing with my way of explaining, I dont get stuck cases first time into the resizer, I only get a stuck case after pulling the bullet with a kinetic hammer, and feeding the case right back into the first station. I am not running it in AP mode yet, 1 case at a time, and not even dropping powder or priming, just size, and seat. My powder charge is set and been consistent, but the hopper is empty, and my powder cop is set but not paying attention to it yet.

I've used all the info here to get it setup right now, where I know how sufficient neck wall pressure to hold the bullet like it should, however, since I am only sizing and testing the seating of the bullet, If I then pull the bullet, and put aside, take case and put it back into station 1, it gets stuck the 2nd time through the sizing die. I guess I could be barley lubed enough to begin with, and then after handling the round I somehow am making the round stick because the lube is not enough? Just seems weird to me. I have continued to use the Hornady case lube, spraying the cases while sitting in a plastic reloaders ammo box, Im going to change to spraying it on the shells on a cookie sheet or start using my lube pad and do each one like I used to on the single stage press. I'm at work and never thought to actually re-lube a case after removing the bullet from it, that would answer that question without wasting anyone's time,

thanks again.

[rsrocket1]

Oh yeah, you definitely ought to relube the case each time you put it into a sizer. The tight fit pretty much scrapes off all the lube each time. No wonder you're getting stuck cases the second time through.