Bad powder smell?

[Hogxtz]

Are there any reloading pros that know what bad powder smells like? I have four 1 lb. cans of H-322. They have a very distictive and different smell than my H-335. Its a strong smell. After making a few hundred rounds of 223 I put them in a baggy and than a metal ammo can. After a couple days when I opened the ammo can I smelled that same weird oder. The cans of powder are new and smelled that way from the first time I opened them. I thought it was just the way the model powder smelled untill today when I opened an older can of H-322 and it does not smell that way.

If powder has gone bad, what or how does it effect the pressures?

[jwest]

All of my reloads smell like a spring rose at sunrise.

[Bongos]

I was told by Hodgdon when powder degrades due to age and exposure, it excrete a reddish oily mist. The smell also changes. Degraded powder smell like amonia like. you should not worry about the pressure and yes you can still shoot it. What you should worry about is the red mist. Once the powder is loaded in the cartridge, in time, the red mist will start corroding the inside of your brass.. weakinging it..it also corrodes and bonds the bullet jackets to brass, thus creating higher pressures. The higher pressures and weaken brass just equal trouble. If you plan on shooting the reloads fairly quickly, it should not be a concern, the other issue is if the red mist get on your gun's internal parts, it's not a good thing. Way to see the red mist is when you pour your powder into the powder measure, just keep an eye out to for the mist. Also, it does not matter if the bottles are sealed, powder will still degrade, this is in all powders (IMR,Hodgdon, ALLIANT, ETC). He said powders from the 1990's are beginning to show these signs

[Hogxtz]

Bongos,

Wow very informative and helpfull. Thank you very much.

[smoothy8500]

As the powders age, the solvents used will evaporate leaving different smells. Common odors are like faint acetone, denatured alcohol, etc.

[bruce381]

battery acid smell is bad other wise us it.

[yoitsbruce]

it smells like bleach

[chim-chim7]

Bullseye smells like latex wall paint drying in my house. Wierd.

[killshot44]

I've found 322 to smell a little differently. As a single-base powder, it has no nitroglycerin only nitrocellulose. Various powders will contain a blend of different amounts of propellants, deterrents and stabilizers.

Age is not a big deal. As long as it's stored in an airtight container, it'll go years without degrading.

[Hogxtz]

Killshot,
Thanks for the info on the make-up of the powder. Explains why it has its own distictive smell.

[jwest]

All of my reloads smell like a spring rose at sunrise.

But seriously - at the range I have noticed when someone is shooting cheap reloads - as mentioned previously it will smell like ammonia. I liken it to the neighbors front yard which is used as a cat's litterbox - same (similar) smell.

You can tell who's shootin' the good stuff - kindof like the difference between cigarette smoke and fine cuban tobacco.

But, my nose isn't as sensitive as others - I am sure the smell of the bad stuff is probably sharper than I realize. I know when my son comes with me he seems to react to it stronger - probably due to age I suppose.

[Bongos]

But seriously - at the range I have noticed when someone is shooting cheap reloads - as mentioned previously it will smell like ammonia. I liken it to the neighbors front yard which is used as a cat's litterbox - same (similar) smell.

You can tell who's shootin' the good stuff - kindof like the difference between cigarette smoke and fine cuban tobacco.

But, my nose isn't as sensitive as others - I am sure the smell of the bad stuff is probably sharper than I realize. I know when my son comes with me he seems to react to it stronger - probably due to age I suppose.

Amazingly factory lake city is dirty, usually the bad smell is from russian steel cased ammo like the 7.62x54R or German 8mm

[killshot44]

Killshot,
Thanks for the info on the make-up of the powder. Explains why it has its own distictive smell.

No problem, here are a few more details:
Today, propellants based on nitrocellulose alone (typically an ether-alcohol colloid of nitrocellulose) are described as single-base powder, whereas cordite-like mixtures using nitroglycerin to dissolve the nitrocellulose are known as double-base powder. Single and double-base smokeless powders make up the vast majority of propellants used in small arms.

Nitrocellulose deteriorates with time, yielding acidic byproducts. Those byproducts catalyze the further deterioration, increasing its rate. The released heat, in case of bulk storage of the powder, or too large blocks of solid propellant, can cause self-ignition of the material. Single-base nitrocellulose propellants are most susceptible to degradation; double-base propellants tend to deteriorate more slowly. To neutralize the decomposition products, which could otherwise cause corrosion of metals of the cartridges and gun barrels, calcium carbonate is added to some formulations.

To prevent buildup of the deterioration products, stabilizers are added. Diphenylamine is one of the most common stabilizers used. Nitrated analogs of diphenylamine formed in the process of stabilizing decomposing powder are sometimes used as stabilizers themselves. The stabilizers are added in the amount of 0.5-2% of the total amount of the formulation; higher amounts tend to degrade its ballistic properties. The amount of the stabilizer is depleted with time.

Powder may be corned into small spherical balls or extruded into cylinders or flakes using solvents such as ether. The properties of the propellant are greatly influenced by the size and shape of its grains. The surface of the grains influences the speed of burning, and the shape influences the surface and its change during burning. By selection of the grain shape it is possible to influence the pressure vs time curve as the propellant burns. Smokeless powder burns only on the surfaces of the granules, flakes or cylinders (described as granules for short). Larger granules burn more slowly, and the burn rate is further controlled by flame-deterrent coatings which retard burning slightly. The intent is to regulate the burn rate so that a more or less constant pressure is exerted on the propelled projectile as long as it is in the barrel so as to obtain the highest velocity.

The propellant formulations may contain various energetic and auxiliary components:

Propellants:
Nitrocellulose, an energetic component of most smokeless propellants
Nitroglycerin, an energetic component of double-base and triple-base formulations
Nitroguanidine, a component of triple-base formulations
D1NA (bis-nitroxyethylnitramine)
Fivonite (tetramethylolcyclopentanone)
DGN (di-ethylene glycol dinitrate)
Acetyl cellulose
Deterrents, (or moderants), to slow the burning rate
Centralites (symmetrical diphenyl urea -- primarily diethyl or dimethyl)
Dibutyl phthalate
Dinitrotoluene (toxic, carcinogenic, and obsolete)
Akardite (asymmetrical diphenyl urea)
ortho-tolyl urethane
Polyester adipate
Stabilizers, to prevent or slow down self-decomposition
Diphenylamine
Petroleum jelly
Calcium carbonate
Magnesium oxide
Sodium bicarbonate
beta-naphthol methyl ether
Decoppering additives, to hinder the buildup of copper residues from the gun barrel rifling
Tin metal and compounds (e.g., tin dioxide)
Bismuth metal and compounds (e.g., bismuth trioxide, bismuth subcarbonate, bismuth nitrate, bismuth antimonide); the bismuth compounds are favored as copper dissolves in molten bismuth, forming brittle and easily removable alloy
Lead foil and lead compounds, phased out due to toxicity
Flash reducers, to reduce the brightness of the muzzle flash (all have a disadvantage: the production of smoke)
Potassium chloride
Potassium nitrate
Potassium sulfate
Potassium hydrogen tartarate (a byproduct of wine production formerly used by French artillery!)
Wear reduction additives, to lower the wear of the gun barrel liners
Wax
Talc
Titanium dioxide
Polyurethane jackets over the powder bags, in large guns
Other additives
Ethyl acetate, a solvent for manufacture of spherical powder
Rosin, a surfactant to hold the grain shape of spherical powder
Graphite, a lubricant to cover the grains and prevent them from sticking together, and to dissipate static electricity

So, a huge number of chemists have worked over the years to give us the variety of powders we now have to choose from by rejiggering the recipe of chemicals and even the shape of the powder itself.

Hope this info is useful.....