baffled on 44 mag maximum load for green dot

[bubbapug1]

I'd like some help, and I really don't want any long drawn out self rightous safety lectures about exceeding maximum loads. If you feel you have to preach, please preach elsewhere.

I have a DE 44 mag. The gun works great on factory loads, 220 and 240 grain loads. The recoil is very heavy, but the slide works perfectly. DE's can be fussy, and this one won't work with 185 grain factory loads, even with a fairly heavy load of powder behind them.

I have run up and past the maximum load for green dot with xtreme 240 grain bullets, copper plated. The recoil is just not there, not even CLOSE. I am up to 10.1 grains, and maximum is rated at 9.5 grains for a lead bullet with gas checks. At 9.7 and above the DE will on occasion cycle flawlessly, but its a 70% occurance. In factory loads, its more like 100%, but the recoil is probably a 10 on a ten point scale, and I am at a 6 now at 10.1 grains.

I have a couple of questions.

1. Could the green dot have absorbed moisture in the hopper and degraded its performance that badly? Its been in the hopper for four days. I personally haven't seen this occur before.

2. Could the load be that far off? And if it is I can safely increase by 0.2 grain increments until I match factory strength? The case is just slightly over 1/2 full. When i pull the factory loads they are almost totally full, but the powder is different.

3. Could batch to batch variations of green dot be so inconsistant that I have a weak batch?

I am weighing every charge to insure consistancy. The power is just not there, and the brass and primers show absolutly no sign of over pressure now.

The green dot keg has been open for a year, but is sealed against moisture, there is no off odors, and no red misting. The powder produces expected results in both my 9mm and 45 acp loads with no issues.

I think the printed load data is wrong.

[J-cat]

Your maximum load with GD is not generating enough recoil to cycle the gun. GD is a fast burning powder and will never make the power you need to cycle your DE. Get a slower powder like 2400 and do over.

Remember, fast burning powders = less recoil. Slow burning powders = more recoil.

[GeoffLinder]

I wasn't aware that the Desert Eagle was supposed to have lead bullets put through it (even with gas checks) so if you are doing that you could be creating this issue. IIRC, it has a bleed hole for gas in the barrel like an AR-15 and shooting lead can crud up this passage and make the gun non-functional.

Now on to copper plated, these also are NOT the same as copper jacketed and they may also be slewing material into the gas passage.

Also, plated may not deliver the same velocity as a true jacketed projectile. Try a good JHP or FMJ bullet type and try loading a nice dense slow-burning powder like AA9. Green Dot is a fairly fast powder IME and I would not make it my first choice for real palm smackin' heavy bullet .44mag loads.

And as always, take any max load data you find and reduce by 5% minimum and work back up in your gun :-)

BTW, factory 44.mag ammo pretty much uses a copper jacketed bullet, not a copper plated one.

[z-bob]

Green Dot is a poor choice. (Even Bullseye would work better than Green Dot for this application.) You might try 2400, AA#7, Power Pistol, N105, or Ramshot Enforcer.

[Oceanbob]

My Accurate reloading guide from 1994

Has a special section for the Desert Eagle (in the .44 Magnum page at the end)

The lowest weight bullet is 240 grains (you mention 220 grain factory load; this is 1994 remember)...

240 Grain JHP (jacketed in copper and not plated)

Accurate No. 7.......17.3 grains........1224 FPS......CUP 40,000 OAL...1.560

Accurate No. 9.......21.3 grains.........1312FPS......CUP 40,000 OAL...1.560

They have loadings for HEAVIER bullets..250 and 300XTPs ($) but I think the point is a heavy bullet with a proper slow burning powder to get that slide working right.

[bubbapug1]

Why is green dot a poor choice? Too fast and not enough gas production?

Why would bullseye be better? Its faster with even less gas production? Please explain si I can further my knowledge.

ocean...thanks for the recipes

[GeoffLinder]

I'll say it again, AA7 or AA9 and yes, green dot is too fast and so is anything in the same burn speed range.

[sargenv]

Gren dot and Bullseye powders are both very fast powders.. they consume themselves way too fast to give a proper "push" to the bullet and make the slide react in kind. You need slower burning powders to do this. Examples of slower burning powder are AA #7, AA #9, H110, Win 296, Alliant 2400, Hodgdon or IMR 4227, Blue Dot, Power Pistol, HS6 and other slow burning pistol/shotgun powder. Green dot, Bullseye, Red Dot, 700x, AA #2, AA #5, Unique, PB, Americal Select, 231, titegroup, titewad, etc are too fast and don't give the longer burn curve neccesary to make the DE cycle.

I know it can be confusing, and it seems like the fast burners are more economical, but the Desert Eagle was designed with heavy bullets and slow burning powder in mind. If you want to plink, get a revolver that doesn't care WHAT load or powder combination you make up, it WILL shoot everything.. maybe not accurately, but it'll go BANG and a bullet will usually exit the barrel and the next one will go BANG too. There is no way to be economical with the Desert eagle.. it likes to eat ammo that costs a bit more than your general plinking ammo. Jacketed (not plated) bullets and large charges of slow burning powder is what it likes.. I don't know a lot of cast bullet shooters who feed lead to a Desert Eagle.

[BigBronco]

I never had any trouble using 2400 with my DE. I highly recommend it.

[bubbapug1]

How about True Blu, I already have 12 pounds of that in the cupboard. Its way slower than green dot and produces a fair amount of gas.

And perhaps I wasn't clear in the OP, when I stated I am using copper plated, lead bullets are a no no in the rifling of a desert eagle barrel. The copper plating also does not "rub" off or foul in any way the desert eagle barrel. I have recovered spent bullets from a phone book I murdered and the rifling marks never got close to the lead. Glocks have similar bullets, and I pushed over 10,000 rounds through a 17 in the last year and saw no instance of fouling other that the occasional slight copper color discoloration you see even from FMJ.

I'll give the tru blu a try, I use it for my 9mm major sti 2011 race gun with great results.

[GeoffLinder]

How about True Blu, I already have 12 pounds of that in the cupboard. Its way slower than green dot and produces a fair amount of gas.

And perhaps I wasn't clear in the OP, when I stated I am using copper plated, lead bullets are a no no in the rifling of a desert eagle barrel. The copper plating also does not "rub" off or foul in any way the desert eagle barrel. I have recovered spent bullets from a phone book I murdered and the rifling marks never got close to the lead. Glocks have similar bullets, and I pushed over 10,000 rounds through a 17 in the last year and saw no instance of fouling other that the occasional slight copper color discoloration you see even from FMJ.

I'll give the tru blu a try, I use it for my 9mm major sti 2011 race gun with great results.

Glad to hear you are not using lead in the DE, that would be bad juju :-(

As far as plated go, I have been of the opinion that they are not as good for pushing to the velocity max and only use them for low-midrange loads.

JHP and FMJ are what is recommended for the DE and that's what I would go with. The DE is a direct gas operated pistol and not at all like a Glock which is delayed blow-back operation. The jury is still out on whether plated bullets shed plating at high velocities. I have seen plating residue build up in pistols with rough barrels and NO, I would not fire-lap a DE to smooth it's barrel LOL

+1 to the recommendation to get a .44mag revolver if you want to build plinking loads that don't cost an arm and a leg.

The DE is an ammo-specific firearm and wants to be fed what it wants, no matter what the cost for components is

[GeoffLinder]

BTW, Tru Blu is somewhere between AA7 and AA9 in burn rate so it should work a lot better than Green Dot.

Here is the load data sheet from Ramshot. Tru Blu does not have a 220 grain load recipe listed. The 240gr JSP load data suggests 11.9-13.2 grains.

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/loadguide/Ramshot_4.4_Load_guide.pdf

As always, I would recommend starting in the middle/lower end of this range and work it up carefully in your pistol.

[bubbapug1]

Thanks guys, I appreciate all of the help. I sold a SW 629 to buy the DE. I'm not a revolver fan. I will get this gun to work. The DE is much more balanced than the 629 IMHO.

As to plated bullets, when I started running 9mm major loads I switched to Zero fmj bullets for the same fear, flaking of the plated copper at the high velocities as the loads are 20% over max. I tried plated for kicks in the last 300 rounds and couldn't see any substantial differences in the barrel with a 3x boroscope after shooting the plated bullets. if there is fouling it has to be in the mircon level.

However, plated and Zero (or Montana Golden bullets) FMJ's are about the same price, so I have switched to FMJ's just to be safe on my high velocity pistol rounds. I had the xtreme plated 44 mag bullets left over from the 629, and thats all I had, so I used them!

Now the question is what to do with 12 pounds of green dot which I also have and use on 9mm, 40sw and 45 acp. 12 pounds is a lot of powder for pistols unless your running a militia.

[buffybuster]

How is having 12 pounds of Green Dot a problem? It'll work fine in most non-magnum pistol cartridges. So you're GTG for awhile.

Keep Plated Bullets under ~1200fps.

The DE is a gas operated semi-auto; as such needs a slower burning powder that will maintain enough pressure at the gas port to cycle the action. As previously stated Green Dot is too fast (does not maintain pressure long enough). My WAG would be the fastest powders I would consider for a DE are: Blue Dot, AA9, with 2400 being a good standby. Most 44Mag loads listed in reloading manuals are invariably for Revolvers, as such have no pressure curve to meet.

[bubbapug1]

ok, ordered 1000 240 grain fmj sp from Montana gold, drained the green dot from the powder hopper, and i will dial in 11.9 grains to start with tru-blu

Thanks for the help fellas.