Problems with 185gr .45acp loads cycling reliably

[jdg30]

I am new to reloading and have just started reloading some .45acp cartridges for my Glock 36. The problem I'm having is that when I load the magazine full, plus one in the chamber (6+1), the gun is not extracting the first spent shell nor is the next round chambering after the first shot. The rest of the rounds through the magazine seem to be functioning well.

The brass is used mixed headstamp with all different manufacturers and was previously bought as commercial reloads from AMMO Bros. The brass was originally bought as reloaded 230gr RN ammo and it functioned flawlessly through the Glock 36. I have tumbled it and reloaded it again on my Dillon 550. The brass is still in good condition and fits in the .45 case gauge after reloading. I have shot approximately up to 1000 rounds through the gun. It has been nearly flawless, a few tweaks here or there to fine tune it and it usually runs 100%, never having this problem before MY reloads.

I have shot factory ammo and factory reloads through it with excellent results. My problems began with my ammo so here are the specs:

Xtreme bullets 185gr FP bullets with 5.5gr of HP-38 powder. Max load according to Lyman manual is 5.8gr. Other manuals have higher loads for HP-38 but I chose the lower charge info for now.

COAL on my reloads is at 1.223". Other manuals have shorter lengths for this weight bullet, but one manual has it a little longer, so I set it here for now.

My gun is in excellent condition and is cleaned after every session. The recoil spring still functions properly and the extractor is clean, sharp and has sufficient spring tension. This problem happened in both magazines loaded 6+1 on the first round. Before firing, I checked to make sure the magazine was seated properly and the extractor had a good hold on the cartridge. On the first round the case would not extract, which happened several times. The same cases worked flawlessly when they were purchased commercially reloaded with 230gr ball ammo in the first place.

I am confused as to what is causing this problem and would appreciate if someone has some insight as to what the problem could be and some solutions to try. The gun is reliable with other ammo and is clean and in great condition.

Thanks

[ojisan]

"On the first round the case would not extract though, several times."

Please clarify:
The same round is stuck in the chamber despite repeated pulls on the slide to extract it (extractor is grabbing the case but slides off and leaves the case in the chamber)

or

This has happened several times with the first round, but it is a different round each time.

[jdg30]

Just to clarify, each occurrence was with a different round.

This happened 3 different times today. When I pulled the trigger on the first round when the gun was loaded with 6+1, the gun fired. When I pulled the trigger the second time, there was just a click from the firing pin releasing (like a dry fire). I dropped the mag and there were still 6 rounds in it. Then I inserted the mag again and racked the slide and the first fired empty shell was ejected. The next 6 rounds fed and ejected like normal.

I only shot 4 magazines today and 3 of the 4 were loaded full plus one in the chamber to test. The gun failed 3 times the same way. I have shot a total of 100 of these rounds.

The first batch was a shorter COAL that was called for in the Lyman manual but the rounds didn't feed properly either, and I was having a little trouble adjusting the powder charge because it was accidentally near the max load data of 5.8gr so I backed it off to 5.5gr of HP-38 and have had this problem now. In 100 rounds I have definitely not had the reliablity that the gun had before my reloads.

[ojisan]

I'm not a Glock guy but most guns work the same.
When the gun is loaded at 6+1, this is the situation where there is the most pressure and drag on the slide from the loaded rounds in the magazine pushing up.
Now we add the light 185g bullet which reduces the rearward thrust on the slide.
Together these cause short stroking of the slide...it can't come back far enough to hit the ejector because of the drag and lack of energy, so the fired case either never fully leaves the chamber or is pushed back into it.
Once the first round from the mag is loaded, pressure on the slide is reduced and slide travel is sufficient.
The Glock does not need much rearward slide travel to reset the trigger, so that is how it is getting cocked.

Dropping down to lead 185g loads may require a softer recoil spring and other tuning to get the loading and ejecting timing right.

Did you test it at 5+1? If it worked, then you have found the problem.

I much prefer 200G lead loads for easy OAL and reliable slide functioning.

[jdg30]

I'm not a Glock guy but most guns work the same.
When the gun is loaded at 6+1, this is the situation where there is the most pressure and drag on the slide from the loaded rounds in the magazine pushing up.
Now we add the light 185g bullet which reduces the rearward thrust on the slide.
Together these cause short stroking of the slide...it can't come back far enough to hit the ejector because of the drag and lack of energy, so the fired case either never fully leaves the chamber or is pushed back into it.
Once the first round from the mag is loaded, pressure on the slide is reduced and slide travel is sufficient.
The Glock does not need much rearward slide travel to reset the trigger, so that is how it is getting cocked.

Dropping down to lead 185g loads may require a softer recoil spring and other tuning to get the loading and ejecting timing right.

Did you test it at 5+1? If it worked, then you have found the problem.

I much prefer 200G lead loads for easy OAL and reliable slide functioning.

That all makes good sense. I had a feeling it had something to do with the pressure of a fully loaded mag pressing upward but couldn't figure out why the shell wasn't being ejected when the extractor had a hold on it. I got the 185gr. bullets to try something different for my first .45 reloading session besides shooting the normal 230gr I always shoot. I mixed a couple 230gr rounds in with my 185gr reloads and the 230's had a significantly greater recoil.

I'm wondering, if I increased the powder charge for the 185gr rounds if it would give the slide enough velocity to properly eject the first spent casing?

I was testing the gun using a full mag plus one in the chamber because it is my CCW gun and that is how I carry it with factory ammo, so I wanted to test it in the same configuration but it hasn't worked right. My next purchase of .45 bullets will be heavier grain bullets but I would like to make the other 400 of these that I bought work properly if I can without changing parts on the gun from stock.

Thanks for the help and I would like to know if increasing the powder charge would help extraction of the first round. Thanks

[ojisan]

Yes, going up on powder likely will work, but you may need a different powder / burn rate so you don't exceed the max load / pressure. *

* I always check several reloading guides for powder type and amount recommendations.
The data varies a lot, new data is supposedly better and often a lower max than old data.
Supposedly this is because of new better pressure testing equipment, but I suspect a big dose of product liability reduction has also been calculated into the newer loading data.

The factory premium 185 JHP defense ammo will likely work with no problem, but they are made hotter and tested carefully for function as compared to lead plinking or target ammo.

[jdg30]

Today I loaded up 28 rounds of 185gr FP (4 mags plus one in the chamber for each magazine) the same way I have been but increased the charge of the HP-38 powder a little over 1 grain from before and had excellent results. I have a Lyman, Hornady and Speer manual and got data from the Hodgdon web page for the 185gr bullet. I have heard that HP-38 and W231 are basically the same powder and can be interchanged.

The Hodgdon site lists charges for both powders exactly the same. I got confused because the Lyman manual lists the two powders with different charges but the Hodgdon site lists them as the same. The Lyman manual lists their MAX load data more than a full grain less than the starting load listed in the Speer and Hornady manual for HP-38/W231 powder. So what I did is make my powder charge in the middle of the data in the Speer manual, at 6.8gr of HP-38, and I had zero malfunctions and every round shot great.

I know that the problem was definitely short cycling the slide because the Lyman load data rounds didn't have enough power to fully cycle the slide properly. With the loads I made today, there was little difference in the recoil between 185gr rounds and 230gr rounds. There was some muzzle flash, so I knew the rounds had some power like they should. I want to thank you Ojisan for your help diagnosing the problem, you were right on. This was a good lesson to learn from.

I still don't understand why there is so much discrepancy between load data in different manuals, but I learned this time that the higher load data worked better with this gun. I enjoy shooting factory and hotter loads, so this will make shooting the rest of the 400 bullets a lot more fun without having malfunctions every mag because of weak loads and I will probably purchase more 185gr bullets.