Reloading Problems

[PonchoTA]

Well, here's a status report, not good!

Background:
My buddy Dave and I decided to go in halvsies for a Dillon 650 on Matt P's group buy.

We finally got the chance to start putting it together, taking our time and trying to make sure we did it right.

Main problem with doing it in stages, you forget where you left off, even if you're checking off the steps as you complete them.

Had a devil of a time trying to figure out why the bullet kept falling into the brass after seating. Finally realized that Station 5 never got completed, so finally crimped down the case around the bullet, at least it seems that way. At any rate, finally got the seat depth and OAL figured out, running pretty consistently at 2.23x" or so. Our manual says that between 2.200" and 2.260" max. is the goal.

Finally (!) figured out the powder charge and setting up the charge alarm, and many iterations of missing the primer seating, spilling powder, cleaning, etc., I think we got it all done. Whew!

Brought our first loads out to the range this afternoon, and the first mag of 10 went great!! Bullets going right in the middle of the target, although we were doing an initial check at only 25 yds. But, smack dab in the middle!

Next 2 rounds next mag went great, 3rd round went BOOM!
Blew the polymer magazine apart, literally, and initial check showed the area around the discharge port was bulged. Gun jumped hard enough to smack Dave in the chin, and he feels as though he has a slight powder burn too. Could not pull the release lever back at all.

He got it home, and manhandled the upper off, and this was what it looked like:



Closer:




After reviewing everything we did, we have come to the conclusion that somehow we got off our timing, and managed to still do a double charge on one round (even though the alarm is properly set and functioning), and managed to not pay attention to it at least once. Obviously we have thrown away the rest of that whole lot (about 7 more rounds), but still, it can NOT be stressed enough to pay attention to EVERYTHING going on, and to not be distracted while reloading.

I understand it can be cathartic and relaxing, but until we get more time and rounds under our belts, we are still NOT taking the routine for granted.

Obvious questions to the reloading gurus: Does this damage look like a double charge is the cause? Or should we be looking at other sources?
Also, are there other QA checks we could do to ensure this doesn't happen again? We plan to start our new checks adding:
- examining the primer to make sure it is there and oriented correctly (separate thread coming)
- tapping the completed round on the bench to make sure the round doesn't fall into the brass

Is there a weight check that could be added? An actual completed round weight that would tell us if there is too much powder in the case? I would think that 21, 23, etc. grains of powder would be lost in the midst of 55 grains of bullet, 95-100 grains of brass, etc. Right?

We FULLY understand that we got lucky and it was only material damage that occurred and not bodily damage, for that we are extremely grateful.

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated!

Paul


.

[Chief-7700]

Check your PM you have one inbound.
Chief

[Bongos]

the problem is, if it is a double charge, there would be powder all over the place on your reloader and you would have noticed it. When you load, did you load maximum loads? Is your powder ball or stick, on a progressive, powers can have a +.5 grain or more...difference (more so with stick)..

[savasyn]

You can't really "double charge" .223, it would overflow. You can put too much in, however, if your powder measure was set wrong.

Sounds more likely to me, based on what you've said, that your cases were holding the bullet in place with the crimp alone, which is not what is suppose to happen. It's possible that when that round chambered, it shoved the bullet into the case causing an over-pressure KB.

A properly sized case should hold the bullet tightly and perfectly without the need for a crimp. Crimping is a security measure for semi-autos, but not a requirement of loading. You might want to check your sizing die and neck expander to make sure they are doing their job properly.

[PonchoTA]

Well, we started at the low end of the recommended range. We are using Ramshot TAC powder (ball type), and with a 55gr bullet, the load should be between 23.4 - 26.0. We loaded with 23.5 for ease of range checking (our next loads were to be 24.0, 24.5, 25.0, 25.5. IF we weren't getting satisfactory results, we might have gone to 26.0, but doubtfully)

We checked several times after setting it to make sure we were getting a consistent throw, 5 times in a row with barely 0.1 grain difference between all of them.


That was our other thought: that maybe when the round was chambered, the bullet got pushed into the case, and the gases released out and down through the magazine instead of pushing the bullet down range. Actually, I can't recall if the bullet DID go downrange or not. There was one round that fell out somewhere along the line right after the KB, (don't know if it was the KB or not) that the bullet was recessed and lots of powder was falling out. That might have more likely been the next round in the mag, that might have suffered overpressure damage as well, when the magazine got blown apart.

I really can't imagine that a loose powder charge, uncontained and loose in the chamber would be able to generate that much pressure though.

How can we redo the seating and crimping better or more accurately? Or which station is the neck opened/rounded that should be adjusted to be not quite as wide?
We tried several (dozen) rounds adjusting the seat depth, and several (half?) of the bullets simply slid right through the neck when I put the calipers on it, even lightly. Only when I started running them through station 5 with the crimp did that seem to resolve the problem.




.

[buffybuster]

We finally got the chance to start putting it together, taking our time and trying to make sure we did it right.

That didn't happen......

Main problem with doing it in stages, you forget where you left off, even if you're checking off the steps as you complete them.

Had a devil of a time trying to figure out why the bullet kept falling into the brass after seating. Finally realized that Station 5 never got completed, so finally crimped down the case around the bullet, at least it seems that way. At any rate, finally got the seat depth and OAL figured out, running pretty consistently at 2.23x" or so. Our manual says that between 2.200" and 2.260" max. is the goal.

You were not correctly full-length resizing the brass. THIS IS THE PROBABLE CAUSE OF YOUR KABOOM.

After reviewing everything we did, we have come to the conclusion that somehow we got off our timing, and managed to still do a double charge on one round (even though the alarm is properly set and functioning), and managed to not pay attention to it at least once. Obviously we have thrown away the rest of that whole lot (about 7 more rounds), but still, it can NOT be stressed enough to pay attention to EVERYTHING going on, and to not be distracted while reloading.

Not a double charge. As a double charge would have overflowed the case, as previously stated.

Rule One for Reloading: Reload Alone, with no distractions. Reloading is not a group/buddy activity.

Quite Frankly, you guys dodged the bullet. I read your post and it is a litany of what not to do..... I'm pretty sure your kaboom was the result of the rifle firing slightly out of battery. Exacerbated possibly by bullet setback and/or overcharge. If I were you, I would deactivate the auto-indexing feature of your 650 and use it as a single-stage, until you (plural) KNOW what you're doing at each operation.

Be Safe.

Amended in later post with possible other causes.....

[Revoman]

Are you sure that you have the correct size dies for the caliber that you are reloading?
Do you have the correct empty case for the firearm?
Do you have the correct size bullet for the caliber that you are loading?
Something doesn't sound right thus the basic questions.
The bullets should not "fall' into the case, there should at least be friction resistance.

[buffybuster]

That was our other thought: that maybe when the round was chambered, the bullet got pushed into the case, and the gases released out and down through the magazine instead of pushing the bullet down range. Actually, I can't recall if the bullet DID go downrange or not. There was one round that fell out somewhere along the line right after the KB, (don't know if it was the KB or not) that the bullet was recessed and lots of powder was falling out. That might have more likely been the next round in the mag, that might have suffered overpressure damage as well, when the magazine got blown apart.

I really can't imagine that a loose powder charge, uncontained and loose in the chamber would be able to generate that much pressure though.

How can we redo the seating and crimping better or more accurately? Or which station is the neck opened/rounded that should be adjusted to be not quite as wide?
We tried several (dozen) rounds adjusting the seat depth, and several (half?) of the bullets simply slid right through the neck when I put the calipers on it, even lightly. Only when I started running them through station 5 with the crimp did that seem to resolve the problem.




.

After reading these comments, I was thinking of what possibly could happen. If the bullet fell back into the case as it was being pushing into the chamber, far enough that it fell back out of the neck, then the bullet would be loose/unsupported inside the case with the powder. When the primer was fired, the powder would ignite and the pressure would build. Now if that bullet (now being pushed out the case by the pressure) did not enter the caseneck straight but rather cocked (let's say with the point jammed into the shoulder of the case) the pressure would continue to build until something let's go...... either the bullet is swaged somewhat sideways down the bore or the lugs setback and pressure goes that way. You commented that you don't recall seeing a bullet impact during the kaboom.... wonder where it went? This is total conjecture, since I never had a reload that wrong.

Crimp does NOT hold the bullet in the case. The only function of crimp is to minimize the possibility of bullet setback in a semi-auto during the cartridge's trip from the mag to the feedramp and into the chamber. NECK TENSION does almost all the work of holding the bullet. Neck tension is set by correctly full-length resizing the case. That did not happen in your case.

My recommendation to you and your friend is to go and observe/get instruction from an experienced reloader to see how each step is suppose to be done.

[LexLuther]

You can weigh each completed round like I did, but that is a real PITA. There can be alot of variance in the weight of each of the components. I think the bullet pushback problem is truly more likely your problem. Do you have calipers? Check your loads against the manual. Also go back through all the die set-up instructions and check everything.

[buffybuster]

You can weigh each completed round like I did, but that is a real PITA. There can be alot of variance in the weight of each of the components. I think the bullet pushback problem is truly more likely your problem. Do you have calipers? Check your loads against the manual. Also go back through all the die set-up instructions and check everything.

This is part of their problem. They do not know how to set up their dies correctly........

[gadjeep]

Yikes. Glad no one was hurt. This post reaffirms my choice to start out with single stage equipment.

[tankerman]

Is this 650 your first experience reloading?

[OB_WAN]

it's nice to get the best right at first but when it comes to reloading, starting out on a single stage press is very beneficial and cheap insurance. I started out on a press that would allow me to separate out each stage using a loading block. I also learned to absolutely not get side-tracked while reloading(luckily not the hard way) and not to reload when I'm tired.

I recently purchased a progressive press for volume reloading but am keeping a single stage press for precision ammo. Always great to have.

[Hans Gruber]

Sounds like either:

1) Sizing die is not adjusted down far enough. Very far off so that the neck isn't getting any sizing.

or

2) Someone is using a Redding die without a neck sizing bushing.

Either of those will cause there to be no neck tension on the bullet, thus causing catastrophic bullet setback during chambering. Starting on a progressive isn't advisable IMHO.

Master each step before you try to do every step simultaneously. I'm on year 2 of my reloading odyssey and I'm just now hitting my stride loading pistol ammo progressively. Rifle ammo on a progressive is even more complex yet.

[spencerhut]

Wow. You guys are lucky. Just wow.
I try to talk people into learning on a single stage. There are simply too many mistakes that can be made if you are uneducated or inexperienced in what you are doing. But unlike fly tying or knitting, hand loading can get you injured or killed.
I was lucky, I had very experienced mentor from a very young age.


Really glad no one got hurt. If you were closer I would offer to do some mentoring for you.