Let's talk about reloading 12 ga

[gottarollwithit]

So i just set up my MEC press that i bought a few years ago - it was a good deal so i jumped at it not knowing what i was getting into. I can't tell exactly which press it is, but it's either a 76 series Grabber or an 8576 Grabber.

I have a handful of lingering and worrisome questions though.

How do i know if a hull is reloadable? Are all hulls reloadable, much like brass casings? How do i know if its service life is over?

I'm ready to create this load:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?shotype=&weight=1.5&weightdis=1+1%2f2&shellid=493&gtypeid=3&gauge=12

Are hulls, wads, and pellet size changeable, yet keeping the same powder charge? I could understand the matching of charge to payload weight, much like charge to bullet weight, but how does hull and wad interchangeability work?

How do i know if my load is overpressuring or is unsafe? Is primer flow the only visible sign of pressure?

Is there a COL specification for 12ga? Or are there specific dimensions that i need to conform to regarding rim/case base diameter? I made a few dummy rounds using some cheapo Universal hulls, but they won't extract from the magazine tube on my shotgun. Any idea what i've done wrong?
From what i can see on my MEC, there's a deprime/prime, charge, hull seat/pellet load, start crimp, full crimp, and finally a size/finish crimp stage. I turned the final size/finish crimp die upward b/c it was causing a ring about a half inch from the base of the shell.


Finally, how sensitive are 12ga loads to changes in recipe? 30gr of Blue Dot is a HUGE charge and will definitely make a BIG bang. An accident with this much powder is bound to hurt...

Thanks!!

[Chief-7700]

What do your reloading manuals say?

[gottarollwithit]

Any tips on a good 12 ga manual? As in something that's brief, picture filled, and provides essential basic info to keep me safe?

I kinda feel like reloading for 12 ga isn't an entirely different animal, so i shouldn't be too worried, but on the other hand some of my questions might be pretty stupid sounding...

[Chief-7700]

Quick search brought this up:http://www.amazon.com/Shotshell-Relo.../dp/B001DD2U1K

[Revoman]

Good call Chief, RCBS puts out a very good shotshell load manual as well. Full of great insight and recipes.

As far as you questions:

How do i know if a hull is reloadable? Are all hulls reloadable, much like brass casings? How do i know if its service life is over?
[/B]Most hulls are reloadable, although some are better than others. Winchester AA and Remington STS hulls are the stars, others will suffice, but will not reload as many times, some only once. Some hulls are tapered, others are straight walled, it will make a difference in the wad.
If the hull becomes split anywhere, it's time to toss. If the lip of the crimp end becomes split or feathered, it's time to toss. [/B]

1.) Are hulls, wads, and pellet size changeable, yet keeping the same powder charge? I could understand the matching of charge to payload weight, much like charge to bullet weight, but how does hull and wad interchangeability work?

There are cases where some of the components are interchangable, but for the most part it is highly advisable to stick with the published recipes. The recipes will tell you exactly what to use.......DO NOT VARY UNTIL YOU ARE WELL VERSED AT LOADING SHOTSHELLS!

2.) How do i know if my load is overpressuring or is unsafe? Is primer flow the only visible sign of pressure?
See above.

3.) Is there a COL specification for 12ga? Or are there specific dimensions that i need to conform to regarding rim/case base diameter? I made a few dummy rounds using some cheapo Universal hulls, but they won't extract from the magazine tube on my shotgun. Any idea what i've done wrong?

There are specific dimensions for the shotshell, in most instances the loader has been preset from the factory and should load a round that meets the specs. That isn't always true so the machine should be verified as meeting spec. The extraction issue sounds like the resizer is not adjusted properly. MEC and maybe others makes a 'Go-No-Go' gauge that must be used for the resizing operation to conform to the diameter spec.....or you can size the base to conform to your barrel by the same adjustments. Or it could be a weak magazine spring issue?

4.) Finally, how sensitive are 12ga loads to changes in recipe? 30gr of Blue Dot is a HUGE charge and will definitely make a BIG bang. An accident with this much powder is bound to hurt...

See one above.

The BEST thing you can do is read as much as you can and get familiar with the process. It's not unlike metallic, but not nearly the same either. Until you are well experienced, recipes must be followed or damage/injury can occur.

Keep asking lots of questions, there is no such thing as a stupid question, especially in reloading, the stupidest question is the one that should have been asked yet wasn't.

Hope this helps!

[gottarollwithit]

Aite, precisely following load recipes it is then.

I agree with the assumption that my mag extraction problems are from the resizing die. My test shells don't chamber smoothly and easily as well. Maybe i'm under sizing it? I only turned the die like half a turn, which i bet was just enough to affect the mag extraction, but still allow it to chamber.

[Cheep]

Lyman has a great manual for shotgun

[morphius]

What shot size, wad & hull are you using and what you plan to shoot?

The type of hull is the least of your concern.

1. Blue dot is a very slow burning shotshell powder, one of the slowest intended for heavy magnum shotshell and pistol loads. If this is for field/game hunting, then it's appropriate. Otherwise for target, you need a faster burning powder and less shot.

2. The combo of hull, wad, powder charge and shot amount is critical. What wad are you using? The large 30gr. powder volume and 1.5oz shot require the right wad, seated in the right depth to allow for both the powder below the wad and the shot in the cup to be able to crimp properly. Based on the powder, the WAA12R (equivalent) or The WAA12 (equivalent) are suitable for for the shot quantity.

3. Most hulls are steel based today. Only some target hulls as Remington STS and Winchester AA are brass. Most hulls walls taper with some exceptions of Federal and Fiocchi, etc which are straight walled. Again the combo of wad & hull is important. Check the number of points in the crimp. Most are 8 point, while some Kemen & Fiocchi hulls are 6 point. Use the right crimp starter. Most steel hulls can be reloaded with some tuning of your loader. (I would avoid any Winchester Universal. These are very poor quality.) Just be sure that the base is are fully sized in station 1, especially if you have issues seating the shell into battery on an autoloader or closing the breach on a break open gun.

4. Crimping in station 5 will be dependent on your adjustments in station 3 with the wad. Any drimp bulge, divot, hole or swirl in the crimp needs wad adjustment and crimp cam adjustment.

Just start with 1 hull at a time and make adjustments unti all is right before doing all stations progressively.

[Sideline Shooter]

Reloading the 12ga. is a totally different animal than pistol or rifle. The recipies that you get should be followed EXACTLY. Yes, changing the primer, changing the wad, or even a wad from a different manufacturer that is a replacement for another wad can change pressures and velocities. First lets look at what you got.

1. What type of shotgun are you loading for?
2. What type of ammo do you want to load?
3. What (if any) components do you have? (powder,primers, hulls?)

I load on a MEC Grabber and can guide you through this maze. The Grabber is a great machine to load on, you just got to learn how it works.
Download the owners manual to make sure you have all the parts to start.

http://www.mecreloaders.com/documents/ownermanuals/8567.pdf

http://www.mecreloaders.com/document...ls/grabber.pdf And if you don't have one now, you must, I repeat, YOU MUST get a powder scale. This will be your most important tool.
sideline shooter

[gottarollwithit]

[Revoman]

From the questions that you are asking I would recommend that you read one of the books that were named above, then come back after you have gained that knowledge and ask the questions to fill-in the blanks.

Do not go into this without any kind of knowledge.

[Sideline Shooter]

What's the use going to be with a 1-3/8th #9 shot load? Thats a heavy charge. Seems #9 shot won't cut it for pheaseant or any large bird. Do you want this load for blasting ammo? Save your shot and your shoulder and shoot some 7/8 or 1 oz loads.
The misconception reloaders get is believeing there is a starting and max load with shotshell loading. There is not. You have a basic recepie on your shot charge to give you a specific velocity and pressure. That's it. Yes changing a primer can take you way over the pressure limit that is allowed.
Unless you have tons of Fed. hulls I would pass on them. If there is a plastic insert or the cardboard basewad those are only good for one maybe 2 loads. That base wad comes loose and can lodge in your barrel.

Looks like you have some serious thinking to do with what you want to reload and what it's use will be.
Here's a good article on primer substitution

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

[gottarollwithit]

Wow, i had no idea there was no starting or max load. I always thought that Alliant supplied load data with recipes that included the maximum charge and that we were supposed to know to start 10% lower.

Is it safe to load shells with 10% or so less powder than specified in the recipe?
Apparently shotshell reloading is significantly more dangerous and more sensitive to slight changes in recipe than metallic reloading.

[Sideline Shooter]

Shotshell loading is not more dangerous than metallic loading, it is just more specific you could say. Why do you think most powder companies have "softened up" their load data as opposed to 20 years ago. Liability!!! Sure we are supposed to know not to go over max but do people do it?? Yes!

And no I don't believe it to be safe to start a begining load 10% less. People often do it to reduce recoil and only reduce the effectiveness of the shotshell. There are many ways to load a good reduced recoil shotshell. You really need to know what velocity you want and pick your load from there. Below is an example. 1st load will give me 1125 FPS with 6,700 PSI. This is the slowest load. The last load will give me 1290 FPS with 10,900 PSI. The max PSI for 12ga is 11,500 PSI. Hello!! Look that is only a 3.5 grain of powder difference. Thats why you need to weigh your powder charges and know what YOUR machine is dropping on YOUR powder bushing. Even the same number bushing may drop different powder charge.

Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 16.4 6,700 PSI 1125
Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 17.6 8,100 PSI 1180
Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 18.7 9,400 PSI 1235
Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 19.9 10,900 PSI 1290

Now using a similar load and only changing the primer to a Federal 209A primer will give you 9,200 PSI and 11,300 PSI and using less powder! So please stay with the published data.

[pdq_wizzard]

Shotshell loading is not more dangerous than metallic loading, it is just more specific you could say. Why do you think most powder companies have "softened up" their load data as opposed to 20 years ago. Liability!!!

But they now have better test equitment and have a better idea of what the real presures are

Sure we are supposed to know not to go over max but do people do it?? Yes!

And no I don't believe it to be safe to start a begining load 10% less. People often do it to reduce recoil and only reduce the effectiveness of the shotshell. There are many ways to load a good reduced recoil shotshell. You really need to know what velocity you want and pick your load from there. Below is an example. 1st load will give me 1125 FPS with 6,700 PSI. This is the slowest load. The last load will give me 1290 FPS with 10,900 PSI. The max PSI for 12ga is 11,500 PSI. Hello!! Look that is only a 3.5 grain of powder difference. Thats why you need to weigh your powder charges and know what YOUR machine is dropping on YOUR powder bushing. Even the same number bushing may drop different powder charge.

Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 16.4 6,700 PSI 1125
Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 17.6 8,100 PSI 1180
Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 18.7 9,400 PSI 1235
Lead Shot 12 1 oz. Clays Rem. 209P WAA12SL 19.9 10,900 PSI 1290

Now using a similar load and only changing the primer to a Federal 209A primer will give you 9,200 PSI and 11,300 PSI and using less powder! So please stay with the published data.

Loading Shotgun is WAY different than rifle or pistol you will reach MAX pressure way before you see anything from the hulls.

Just use published data, don't sub and you will be ok.