Request for Recipe (.223 77gr HPBT), also info to share

[Jicko]

(Most info would be for 77gr HPBT, but other bullet wts are being added -Jicko 1/29/09)

I'm trying to develop a 223 Rem, 77gr load for the use in a 1x7 twist 18" SPR, the goal is to try to achieve Mk 262 -like performance at a reasonable cost. (I will experiment these load with my 1x7 16" M4 and with my 1x9 24" bull upper later too)

My first attempt will be with
Bullet: Nosler Custom Comp 77gr HPBT
Powder: RL15 or Ramshot TAC or VV N540
Primer: CCI #41 or #BR4
Brass: Fed 223 Rem or LC 05/06

If you have a recipe(for 77gr, or similar wt.) that you would like to share, please do. I can use as much references as I can get. Any numbers/info would be great - brand of bullet, HP? BT?, what powder, what loading wt.(gr), what primers, OAL, brass, velocity, barrel lenght, twist rate, accuracy, group size, etc...



I had done my homework, and I had consolidated(w/ links) all the info/data/numbers I had found from various sites. Some definitely provide more info than others. I am biased towards the powders/bullets that I had chosen. I may go plot these as graphs or such to investigate more, but here are what I have now, and I am sharing with you (standard disclaimer, use at your own risk):




--------------------------------------------
LOAD DATA FROM BULLETS & POWDER MANUF
--------------------------------------------

Nosler's website

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=15&b=22%20Cal&s=6

Bullet: 77gr Nosler Custom Competition HPBT
Ballistic Coefficient: .340
Sectional Density: .219

Primer: ?
Brass: ?
OAL: ?
Trim-to: ?
Barrel: ?
Twist: 1x7

Powder: RL-15
22.5gr - 2487fps (86% density)
23.5gr - 2633fps (89% density)
24.5gr - 2741fps (93% density) <- most accurate out of this 3

Powder: VV N135
20.5gr - 2451fps (78% density) <- most accurate out of this 3
21.5gr - 2555fps (82% density)
22.5gr - 2664fps (86% density)

Powder: Varget
22.5gr - 2466fps (86% density) <- most accurate out of this 3
23.5gr - 2598fps (89% density)
24.5gr - 2693fps (93% density)



Sierra's website

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Bullet: 77gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT
Ballistic Coefficient: .362 @ 1800fps+ / .343 @ 1800fps-
Sectional Density: .219

Primer: Rem 7 1/2
Brass: Fed
OAL: 2.260"
Trim-to: 1.750"
Barrel: 20" Colt HBAR
Twist: 1x7

Powder: Ramshot TAC
21.8gr - 2500fps
22.2gr - 2550fps
22.7gr - 2600fps
23.1gr - 2650fps
23.6gr - 2700fps
24.0gr - 2750fps

Powder: RL-15
22.3gr - 2400fps
23.2gr - 2500fps
23.6gr - 2550fps
24.1gr - 2600fps

Powder: VV N540
22.9gr - 2400fps
23.7gr - 2500fps
24.1gr - 2550fps
24.5gr - 2600fps
24.9gr - 2650fps

Powder: VV N140
22.3gr - 2400fps
23.2gr - 2500fps
23.6gr - 2550fps
24.1gr - 2600fps <- most accurate out of all tests (more in the pdf)
24.5gr - 2650fps



Alliant Powder's website

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Centerfire%20Load&gtypeid=2&weight=77&shellid=1049&bulletid=446

Bullet: 77gr Sierra HPBT
Powder: 24.1gr RL15
Primer: Fed 205M
Brass: Win
OAL: 2.26
Barrel: 24"
Twist:?
Velocity: 2793fps
Pressure: 51200psi



Lapua/Vihtavuori Powder's website

http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=850

http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/RifleReloadingData2006.pdf

Primer: Small Rifle
Brass: Lapua
Trim-to: 1.752"
Barrel: 25"
Twist: 1x7

Bullet: 69gr Sierra HPBT
OAL: 2.244"
Powder: 24.1gr N540 (min)
Velocity: 2703fps
Powder: 26.4gr N540 (max)
Velocity: 2986fps

Bullet: 75gr Hornady HPBT
OAL: 2.260"
Powder: 23.1gr N540 (min)
Velocity: 2536fps
Powder: 25.8gr N540 (max)
Velocity: 2831fps

Bullet: 80gr Sierra HPBT
OAL: 2.551"
Powder: 21.4gr N540 (min)
Velocity: 2395fps
Powder: 23.7gr N540 (max)
Velocity: 2652fps



Ramshot Powder's website

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/loadguide/Ramshot%20Edition%204.2.pdf

Bullet: 77gr Nosler HPBT
Primer: Fed 205
OAL: 2.260"
Barrel: 24"
Twist: 1x7 or 1x9

Powder: 21.2gr TAC (min)
Velocity: 2515fps
Powder: 23.5gr TAC (max)
Velocity: 2794fps
Pressure: 52500psi (max)




LOAD DATA FROM INDIVIDUALS
------------------------------

From ocabj (on calguns):

Bullet: 77gr Nosler CC HPBT
Powder: 24.0gr RL15
Primer: CCI #BR4
Brass: LC

Barrel: 20"
Twist: 1x7
Velocity: 2740fps

Barrel: 18"
Twist: 1x7
Velocity: ~2650fps (unconfirmed, just a wild guess)


Bullet: Sierra Match King 77gr BTHP
Powder: 25.3gr Hodgdon Varget
Primer: Winchester SR Primer
Brass: LC

Barrel: 18" WOA SPR w/ Wylde chamber
Twist: 1x7
Velocity: 2788fps (avg from 5: 2772, 2797, 2793, 2798, 2779)



From thmpr (on calguns):

Bullet: 77 grains Nosler
Powder: 25gr Ramshot TAC
OAL: 2.255" (probably inconsistant OAL, therefore, ES is high)
Barrel: 20" JP CTR-02
Twist: 1x8
Velocity: 2786fps (avg out of 10: 2821, 2786, 2832, 2800, 2799, 2745, 2781, 2776, 2796, 2720)

Powder: 24.8gr Ramshot TAC
Velocity: ?

Bullet: 77 grains Nosler
Powder: 25gr Ramshot TAC
OAL: 2.255"
Barrel: 20" JP CTR-02
Twist: 1x8
Velocity: 2798fps (avg out of 10: 2801, 2793, 2802, 2800, 2799, 2795, 2791, 2804, 2796, 2798)
ES: 13



(on ar15.com):

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=206

Most likely 1x8 and 1x7 twist.

From billyhill
Bullet: 77 gr Nosler CC HPBT
Powder: 23.7gr Hodgdon Varget
Primer: CCI #BR4
Brass: LC
Brass Trim: ?
OAL: ?
Barrel: 20"
Twist: ?
Velocity: 2786fps
ES: ?
SD: 16fps

From overdriv
Bullet: 77 gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT
Powder: 23.9gr Alliant RL15
Primer: WSR
Brass: LC
Brass Trim: ?
OAL: 2.255
Barrel: 20"
Twist: ?
Velocity: 2583fps
ES: 69fps
SD: 16fps

From overdriv
Bullet: 77 gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT
Powder: 23.6gr Ramshot TAC
Primer: WSR
Brass: Remington
Barrel: 20"
Velocity: 2687fps
ES: 30fps
SD: 9fps

From sig685 (exact duplicate of BH 223 Blue Box)
Bullet: 77 gr Sierra MatchKing (Moly) HPBT
Powder: 24.5gr Hodgdon Varget
Primer: Rem 7.5
Brass: LC
Brass Trim: 1.760
OAL: 2.258
Barrel: 24" SS
Twist: ?
Velocity: 2730fps
ES: 51fps
SD: 12fps

From shootsenmeister
Bullet: 77 gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT
Powder: 24.0gr VV N140
Primer: CCI #BR4
Brass: LC
Brass Trim: 1.750
OAL: 2.260
Barrel: 16" SS
Twist: ?
Velocity: 2618fps
ES: 42fps
SD: 16fps

(Extracted from a thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=9&t=500036)

From Lawman734
Bullet: 77 gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT
Powder: 25.3gr Hodgdon Varget
Primer: WSR
Brass: LC
Barrel: 18" SPR
Twist: 1x7
Velocity: 2780fps

From Lawman734
Bullet: 77 gr Nosler CC HPBT
Powder: 24gr RL-15
Primer: WSR
Brass: Winchester
Barrel: 18" SPR
Twist: 1x7
Velocity: 2730fps

From Ex0331
Bullet: 77 gr Sierra MatchKing HPBT
Powder: 23.5gr AA2230C
Primer: CCI #400
Brass: LC
OAL: 2.250
Barrel: 20"
Twist: 1x9 (JR: he must be lucky)
Velocity: 2769fps
ES: 24
SD: 17

From Silly_Look
Bullet: 77 gr Nosler HPBT with Cannuelure
Powder: 24.5gr RL-15
Primer: CCI #450 Magnum Primer (JR: I'd rather use #41 Military primer)
Brass: New Winchester
Barrel: 20"
Twist: 1x8 RRA Varmint A4 Heavy Barrel
Velocity: 2662fps
ES: 40
SD: 11






AMMO SPEC & INFO
-------------------

Specification of Mk 262 Mod 1 (non-official source)
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/mk262_080105/ (Guns & Ammo article)

Manufacturer: Black Hills Ammunition
Brass: BHA
Bullet: 77gr Sierra MatchKing OTM w/ cannelure
Primer: ? (non-corrosive boxer, crimped)
OAL: ?
Barrel: 18" (Mk12 SPR)
Twist: 1x7
Powder: ? (custom version of Ramshot TAC??)
Velocity: 2783fps

Ballistics
Range: Muzzle (measured @ 12ft/4yds)
Velocity: 2783fps
Path: -2.75" (0" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 100yds
Velocity: 2534fps
Path: +3.99" (.9" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 200yds
Velocity: 2299fps
Path: +5.2" (3.8" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 300yds
Velocity: 2076fps
Path: 0" (9" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 400yds
Velocity: 1866fps
Path: -13.3" (16.8" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 500yds
Velocity: 1670fps
Path: -36.7" (27.7" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 600yds
Velocity: 1438fps
Path: -72.7" (42.3" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 700yds
Velocity: 1320fps
Path: -124.5" (61.1" drift from 10mph wind)

Range: 800yds
Velocity: 1186fps
Path: -196.2" (84.4" drift from 10mph wind)


Velocity from Various Weapons
(10 rounds @ 12ft/3yds, Oehler 35P chronograph, 30 deg F, 100ft above sea level)
Barrel: 18" (Mk 12 Mod 0)
Velocity: 2783fps

Barrel: 18" (Mk 12 Mod 1)
Velocity: 2791fps

Barrel: 16" (AR carbine)
Velocity: 2751fps

Barrel: 13" (AR carbine)
Velocity: 2534fps


MK262 Velocity data from Novelske (I think..)

7.5" 2053 FPS ... 10.5" 2363 FPS
DIFF 310 FPS
DIFF/IN 103 FPS

10.5" 2363 FPS ... 14.5" 2576 FPS
DIFF 213 FPS
DIFF/IN 53 FPS

14.5" 2576 FPS ... 16" 2669 FPS
DIFF 93 FPS
DIFF/IN 62 FPS

16" 2669 FPS ... 18" 2769 FPS
DIFF 100 FPS
DIFF/IN 50 FPS

18" 2769 FPS ... 20" 2818 FPS
DIFF 49 FPS
DIFF/IN 25 FPS





OTHERS MISC INFO
-------------------


SAAMI Max PSI - 223 Remington 55000psi

6mmBR.com 223 info, great!!

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

Accurate Powder - 223Rem data

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/NRAcartridges/223Remington%20pages%20376%20and%20377.pdf

5.56 NATO Specification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO

Mk262 Mod1 Performance

http://www.btammolabs.com/tests/6.htm

http://www.btammolabs.com/tests/5.htm

Great info on Mk262 and other commerical ammo that are like it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=406469

[PistolPete75]

this is a good thread. it should be a sticky

[ocabj]

There have been posts on Mk262 recipes before. I've posted the one I developed for my 18" SPR when I still had it.

NOTE: The following data exceeds SAAMI specifications and can be dangerous to use in certain rifles.

Sierra Match King 77gr BTHP
25.3gr Hodgdon Varget
LC Brass
Winchester SR Primer

Developed in a White Oak Armament 18" SPR configuration with a Wylde chamber.



Note: At the time, I was using Winchester SR primers. I would recommend Remington or CCI instead.

Any load that will give you Mk262 performance will exceed SAAMI specifications for .223. Thus, you're not going to find any published commercial data that will meet Mk262 velocities.

You shouldn't use anyone's Mk262 'recipe' straight up.

If you want to make your own Mk262 clone ammo, you NEED to get a chronograph and work up the load appropriately. Don't kid yourself thinking you can just use someone else's recipe or the commercial data and guestimate the proper load to meet a specific velocity. The Mk262 pressures/velocities are pretty hot and you're going to need to carefully find the right load for your specific rifle. And when you do find the correct load for your specific rifle, you need to reconfirm the load everytime you go to a new lot # in bullets, powder, primers, or cases.

Also, that Nosler load quoted as mine was not confirmed to be 2650fps in an 18". That is my load I use in Service Rifle and it clocks 2740fps in a 20" Service Rifle barrel. I would estimate that it shoots 2650fps in an 18", but I have never clocked it in a 18" barrel.

[Jicko]

There have been posts on Mk262 recipes before.

I tried to search for it, but I couldn't find it.... any link?

I've posted the one I developed for my 18" SPR when I still had it.

NOTE: The following data exceeds SAAMI specifications and can be dangerous to use in certain rifles.

Sierra Match King 77gr BTHP
25.3gr Hodgdon Varget
LC Brass
Winchester SR Primer

Developed in a White Oak Armament 18" SPR configuration with a Wylde chamber.

Note: At the time, I was using Winchester SR primers. I would recommend Remington or CCI instead.

Any load that will give you Mk262 performance will exceed SAAMI specifications for .223. Thus, you're not going to find any published commercial data that will meet Mk262 velocities.

Thanks for the above info, great info!

BTW, how do you figure out whether your load exceed SAAMI pressure spec? How do you "economically" measure pressure? Is there a formula you can calculate what will be your "pressure"?

You shouldn't use anyone's Mk262 'recipe' straight up.

Certainly NOT, I am not recommending anyone to do this!!

I'm just looking for some starting points, and data points for me to maybe plot some graphs to start this process.

Also so ideas as to what other powder or components that I may want to acquire and try.... (I think I have got quite some components to try now...)

If you want to make your own Mk262 clone ammo, you NEED to get a chronograph and work up the load appropriately. Don't kid yourself thinking you can just use someone else's recipe or the commercial data and guestimate the proper load to meet a specific velocity. The Mk262 pressures/velocities are pretty hot and you're going to need to carefully find the right load for your specific rifle. And when you do find the correct load for your specific rifle, you need to reconfirm the load everytime you go to a new lot # in bullets, powder, primers, or cases.

This is EXACTLY what I am going to do. For any numbers that I've got, I will probably back down 10-15% as my starting load and then work my way up.

But I need to find some starting point.

Also, that Nosler load quoted as mine was not confirmed to be 2650fps in an 18". That is my load I use in Service Rifle and it clocks 2740fps in a 20" Service Rifle barrel. I would estimate that it shoots 2650fps in an 18", but I have never clocked it in a 18" barrel.

That's the "~" there for... it is a *guess*...

[thmpr]

[brando]

Good thread worth a sticky. I've been working up a load in my 18" SPR build using 77gr SMK, Remington Brass, CCI and N140. Like the Sierra manual says, around 24.1g seems to be the sweet spot.

[Bolt2Bounce]

[Jicko]

Rifle: JP CTR-02 20"

Nice! What twist rate did you end up with? 1x9 or 1x8?

[thmpr]

1X8.....Ideal for the 69 to 80 grain bullet. As you can see, the load is a bit unpredicatable with >100 E.S. From my last test, 24.8 grains of TAC was the sweet spot I was looking for. Did not have a chance to chrono the new load but saw no differences with accuracy for a 10 shot group (<.73 MOA)

[Jicko]

25gr of RL15 seems pretty HIGH.... I loaded a couple last nite, the case is like... PACKED.... and it is certainly crushing the powder when seating the bullet... according to Nosler, 24.5gr is already 93% density... so 25gr must be like 95% density

I loaded many different wt of RL15 to be tested this weekend from 22gr up to 25gr... I will definitely work it up....

BTW, anything over 24gr is like crushing powder already... and the seating die is making a mark on the bullets.... (I'm using Dillon 550B and Dillon's 223 dies set).... is this normal?

[ocabj]

BTW, anything over 24gr is like crushing powder already... and the seating die is making a mark on the bullets.... (I'm using Dillon 550B and Dillon's 223 dies set).... is this normal?

Yes, for the most part you're going to see marks on the bullet from the seating die if compressing powder. But I load as much as 24.5gr of RL15 without any issues because I use one of these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=293879

The long drop tube helps to guide the powder in better so it packs a lot better.

This thing helped me get over 25 grains of Varget into an LC case with a 77gr SMK.

[Bolt2Bounce]

yeah it is a compressed powder charge, and a Max load for my NRA Highpower Upper. a long drop tube works well for helping with this problem of over full cases, your loads need to be worked up from the bottom of the data charges, it seems in some guns the hot rod loads shoot better groups and in HP it's dam near mandatory to have a High velocity loads that reduces wind drift at long range targets. Some of the pro's load a charge up until they blow primers and then back down, not recommending that, but hot is good sometimes. remember 5.56mm Nato ammo, mil spec is not SAMMI spec, it's pressure is higher.. I use LC brass and IVI brass, so it is thick and tough. B2B.

[Jicko]

My question is, HOW can I find out what "pressure" these rounds are.... SAAMI spec for 223 is 55000psi... according to Alliant's website, 24.1gr of RL15 should yield 51200psi.

I know that 3 rounds are probably not enough, but I just want to establish some base data for my rifle, and then I can zoom into a few particular load to work on. I will working on loads with Ramshot TAC and Vihtavuori N540 next week.

All of the brass from these loads, even up to 25.0gr of RL-15, didn't show ANY sign of stress. They all look pretty good. So, which "load" should I be going after? I think, from these numbers, if I just want to duplicate Mk262 performance(muzzle velocity of around 2750-2780fps), I should be able to stop at around 24.7gr.

Or maybe I should load like 10 of each of 24.6gr, 24.7gr, 24.8gr and maybe up to 25.0gr and test for accuracy....

I causally shot these 3 rounds groups, and all of them are within 1" @ 50yds....

Any comments?

-------------------

Day 1 of load development

Barrel: Douglas Air-gauged SS Match Barrel tuned by Compass Lake Engineering
Chamber: Wlyde
Length: 18" SPR

Bullet: Nosler Custom Competition 223Rem 77gr HPBT (non-cannuellure, non-crimped)
Brass: Fed 223 Rem
Primer: CCI #41 (5.56 Military)
Chrono distance: 7ft

Powder: Alliant RL-15

Wt: 22.5gr
Round 1 (2.2520 OAL): 2489fps
Round 2 (2.2530 OAL): 2458fps
Round 3 (2.2560 OAL): 2438fps
Avg OAL: 2.254
Avg Velocity: 2462fps
ES: 51
SD: 25.7

Wt: 23.5gr
Round 1 (2.2520 OAL): 2541fps
Round 2 (2.2530 OAL): 2572fps
Round 3 (2.2560 OAL): 2572fps
Avg OAL: 2.255
Avg Velocity: 2562fps
ES: 31
SD: 17.9

Wt: 24.0gr [compressed powder, ie. ring mark on the bullet]
Round 1 (2.2580 OAL): 2631fps
Round 2 (2.2590 OAL): 2604fps
Round 3 (2.2550 OAL): 2636fps
Avg OAL: 2.257
Avg Velocity: 2624fps
ES: 32
SD: 17.2

Wt: 24.1gr [compressed powder]
Round 1 (2.2590 OAL): 2687fps
Round 2 (2.2585 OAL): 2644fps
Round 3 (2.2555 OAL): 2644fps
Avg OAL: 2.258
Avg Velocity: 2658fps
ES: 43
SD: 24.8

Wt: 24.5gr [compressed powder]
Round 1 (2.2535 OAL): 2700fps
Round 2 (2.2570 OAL): 2728fps
Round 3 (2.2580 OAL): 2714fps
Avg OAL: 2.256
Avg Velocity: 2714fps
ES: 28
SD: 14.0

Wt: 24.7gr [compressed powder]
Round 1 (2.2535 OAL): 2789fps
Round 2 (2.2570 OAL): 2784fps
Round 3 (2.2580 OAL): 2756fps
Avg OAL: 2.254
Avg Velocity: 2776fps <========= **
ES: 33
SD: 17.8

Wt: 25.0gr [compressed powder]
Round 1 (2.2580 OAL): 2819fps
Round 2 (2.2590 OAL): 2844fps
Round 3 (2.2600 OAL): 2840fps
Avg OAL: 2.259
Avg Velocity: 2834fps
ES: 25
SD: 13.4

Wt: 25.0gr [load to longer than magazine OAL]
Round 1 (2.387 OAL): 2907fps


Control Tests:

Federal AE223 (55gr FMJBT)
Round 1 (2.2070 OAL): 3005fps
Round 2 (2.1990 OAL): 2967fps
Round 3 (2.2020 OAL): 2980fps
Avg OAL: 2.203
Avg Velocity: 2984fps
ES: 38
SD: 19.3

Federal XM193 (55gr FMJBT)
Round 1 (2.2480 OAL): 3172fps
Round 2 (2.2440 OAL): 3201fps
Round 3 (2.2480 OAL): 3183fps
Avg OAL: 2.247
Avg Velocity: 3185fps
ES: 29
SD: 14.6

-------------------

I will be loading 5 rounds each of 24.7gr, 24.8gr, 24.9gr, 25.0gr & 25.1gr and redo the above test; then, hopefully will nail down a RL-15 recipe. Then I will compare the results with Ramshot TAC's and VV N540's.

[phish]

There is a pressure gauge kit that you can buy for about $270. It has a PC interface and you attach the strain gauges to the rifle's chamber.

It's kind of a hassle attaching them to an upper, much easier to do on a bolt gun.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com

[Jicko]

I doubt that everybody got that..... so, is there another way to figure out where I need to "stop"? Per se, I want to maximize the amount of powder I can put in, while being safe? ie. find out the "maximum", then back down a gr or 2, so any inconsistancy in my powder measure won't push my round over the line...