I Keep Breaking Sizing Dies

[im3wheeln]

Hi all, I've been lurking on the board for a while now and have found tons of good info (thank you), however, I've been unable to find anything on my recent problem. Just to give a little history, I've been away from the sport for over 10 years and I'm just getting back into it having recently purchased a Super Red Hawk and Puma lever gun (still on lay-a-way), both in .480 Ruger. I've enjoyed reloading in the past I though this would be a good time to break out the reloading equipment (Lee single stage presses). So I do my research, order new Starline cases, hardcast bullets, and a new set of Lee dies (still need primers though). I don't get more than 5 cases sized and POP!, I broke the carbide ring in the sizing die and mangled a brand new case. I've reloaded several 1000 of rounds of .38 special in the past without any issues so I'm thinking I've got a defective die. I send it back and they replace it without question. Once I get the new die I double check the alignment on the press and depth of the shell as it goes into the die. I notice that, although it's is adjusted properly, it doesn't want to size all the way down to the base of the shell, as if the base is too big. I check another shell, and again POP! Busted another die, mangled another brand new case. Could there be something wrong with the dies or cases, case too big, dies to small? Would I have better luck with the new titanium nitrate dies? What am I doing wrong here? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Eric

[checkenbach]

I would check your die depth, (adjust die till base just kisses shell plate, then back off a touch), then check to make sure the decapper is not set to deep. Make sure there's no spacer ring that has to be used with the die set, I have belled a few .357 magnum cases without the spacer ring (not needed for .38 special) and it took a few cases to figure out what was going on!!!!!
Also, case lube works wonders, even with carbide dies. If none of this works, try some different brass. It's not unheard of for MFGR's to put the wrong head stamp on the wrong brass. Also, some of the newer dies are made in different lengths in order to work on progressive machines. My Lee taper crimp die had to have the lock ring turned upsidedown in order to work on my Hornady LNL AP. Make sure the ones you have are compatible with your machine.

[tzahoy]

The first thing to check is to make sure the shell holder is not bumping the die. Carbide is very brittle!

[mif_slim]

Have you lubed your cases? Lubing cases does a whole lot to the smoothness of sizing. I've gotten brass stuck in the sizers and I have to hammer the crap out of it to get it out (when I first started). Also, check to see if your brass are Boxer prime. Sometimes some brass are not and can ruin a good die quick.

[a.tinkerer]

It sounds like you're following the lee factory directions to the letter - and those directions aren't taking the possible "cam-over" of your loading press into account.

Swing that lever fully through the stroke to the "up" position.
Watch very closely the travel of the ram.
Does it go up, then just a tiny bit DOWN at the very end of the lever stroke?
If so, and if you're setting the die to touch the ram (shell holder) at the end of the lever's travel, then on the way to the end of the lever's travel, you're forcing the mouth of the carbide die into the shellholder and breaking the carbide sizing ring.

Betchya that's what's happening here.




Cheers
Tinker

[Beelzy]

Lube every 4th or 5th case.

[ar15barrels]

Try another brand of die.
Perhaps the ones you got were from the same batch and there's a bad batch...

[im3wheeln]

Thanks everyone for your quick replies. When I broke the 1st die I did read that if your die is touching the shell plate you may have a problem. On the 2nd die I made sure I had about a 1/32 of an inch clearance, however when sizing the cases the die will not even go down that far. It typically stops about an 1/8" to 3/16" before the base of the case. Now that I think about it, I wonder if the base of the cases are are to big and putting too much pressure on the carbide causing it to break? I'll have to try and measure the cases and what's left of the die over the holidays. In the mean time guess I'm going to need to order another sizing die.

[mbkmkk]

"cam-over"

I hear this all the time and I am not sure what this process is...Do Lee presses even allow for this "cam-over" option?

[gunboat]

Perhaps measuring the case diameter with mics and checking against the case specs is in order. I does sound like the case is larger at the base than the die wants to digest. Case is thickest there of course and it takes a lot of pressure to squeeze it smaller at this point. Carbide is not happy with that type of pressure. my ha-penny

[J-cat]

I hear this all the time and I am not sure what this process is...Do Lee presses even allow for this "cam-over" option?

All presses allow the ram to cam over.

The process is as follows:

Raise the ram all the way up.
Screw in the die until it touches the shell holder and then another quarter to half a turn.
Raise the ram. You should be able to have the shellholder touch the die plus "cam over" the bottom of the die. This is where the you bottom out the shellholder against the die, but the press leverage allows the ram to go up a little more and "spring" the press.

We sometimes set the press to cam over to make sure the press is sizing the case properly, especially with bottlenecked rounds that are headspaced short. All presses spring a little. Some more than others. Camming over compensates for the springing.

[a.tinkerer]

Bit of a language issue on 'cam-over' here it seems...
(and by the way, it's not an option - it's a design feature *or as some would say - a feature of poor design*)

Let's imagine reloading presses here, for the sake of this there's no die threaded into the press.
Just the press.
With some presses, the way the lever-to-ram linkage is designed, at the end of the lever's travel, the ram reaches the end of it's upward stroke.

With some (other) presses, the way the lever-to-ram linkage is designed, the ram reaches the top of it's stroke a wee bit before the lever reaches the end of it's stroke. Continuing the lever's travel to the end of it's arc will actually cause the ram to come down just a little bit.
Swinging the lever back from the end of it's arc will first cause the ram to go up a tiny bit, then down back to the bottom of it's travel.

That little bit of up-then-down at the end of the stroke is what's known as 'Cam-Over'

What is noted in this qote from J-cat describes the effects of springing the press by essentially forcing the ram (shellholder...) against the mouth of the die.
You can do that with a press that will cam-over or one that won't.

All presses allow the ram to cam over.

The process is as follows:

Raise the ram all the way up.
Screw in the die until it touches the shell holder and then another quarter to half a turn.
Raise the ram. You should be able to have the shellholder touch the die plus "cam over" the bottom of the die. This is where the you bottom out the shellholder against the die, but the press leverage allows the ram to go up a little more and "spring" the press.

We sometimes set the press to cam over to make sure the press is sizing the case properly, especially with bottlenecked rounds that are headspaced short. All presses spring a little. Some more than others. Camming over compensates for the springing.

I do not know what Lee presses will or won't do this.
I think my Pacific presses will.
I think that one of my old RCBS presses will, and another won't.

It's really easy to find out if your press will or won't 'cam-over'
AND it's important to know if your press will do this for the reason that it's very very easy to screw your dies up by 'accidently' doing it.


What shell holder are you using, what press - where you're blowing up carbide dies?





Cheers
Tinker

[J-cat]

All pressess will.

[im3wheeln]

Perhaps measuring the case diameter with mics and checking against the case specs is in order. I does sound like the case is larger at the base than the die wants to digest. Case is thickest there of course and it takes a lot of pressure to squeeze it smaller at this point. Carbide is not happy with that type of pressure. my ha-penny

I believe this is exactly what is happening. When measured the die and cases and I found that the die measures .496 (give or take .001, the carbide insert is pretty damaged), each sized case measured .498 except for the last .200/.250 (the base), which was .503. New case of the same lot measure .500 and the same .503 at the base. The bases on this brass is very thick and is obviously not compressing at all so I'm betting the carbide is just giving way from the pressure. The spec on a Ruger .480 calls for .504 maximum OD so I'm assuming I'll be ok if I just size these cases down to the base, leaving the last .250 as is? Would this be acceptable for use in a revolver and/or lever gun?