Bought .311 bullets as seconds? need ID help

[Tripplet918]

I bought a couple years supply of these bullets from Powder Valley. They were selling them as seconds.

Theyre 303 (.311?) 180 gr Spitzer Boat Tails.

When I was looking at the picture when I bought them, I thought they were Sierra Game Kings. Those are Spitzers but not boat tails. Game Kings were the only bullets in 180 and .311 that they sold.

As they were seconds, I surmised the pic was a stock photo and not representative of the bullet. The item only said Spitzer. As background, PV doesnt say who makes the bullet, as seconds.

When the bullets arrived, they are indeed boat tails. Since Sierra doesnt make .311 Game Kings in 180 gr and doesnt make any .311 bullet in a boat tail, Im not sure what these are?

I took 10 samples and they are indeed .311.

Would appreciate if anyone can help me ID these bullets. I could use a good BC for my Kestrel. Sierra makes a Game King 180 gr boat tail but in .308

[Cowboy T]

Those actually look like they could be Speer bullets, too. That's the general profile of the 180gr Speer SBT's in 0.308" diameter, too.

[kcstott]

1. Why do you care?
Not to be harsh but you bought factory seconds, they are plinkers or SHTF fodder at best.
2. A BC? really? For factory seconds? For a bullet that won't see 400 yards. Again Factory seconds, you are wasting your time.
Find any 180 grain .311 spitzer say speer or nosler. use that BC as a base line and tweak from there. It's not going to make a big difference at 400 yards or less.

The reason you don't need to put that much effort into this is what happens when you run out? it's not like you're going to find them again and even if you do they are seconds meaning who knows WTF is wrong with them to be a second. pick a middle ground powder charge and go shoot.

[Tripplet918]

1. Why do you care?
Not to be harsh but you bought factory seconds, they are plinkers or SHTF fodder at best.
2. A BC? really? For factory seconds? For a bullet that won't see 400 yards. Again Factory seconds, you are wasting your time.
Find any 180 grain .311 spitzer say speer or nosler. use that BC as a base line and tweak from there. It's not going to make a big difference at 400 yards or less.

The reason you don't need to put that much effort into this is what happens when you run out? it's not like you're going to find them again and even if you do they are seconds meaning who knows WTF is wrong with them to be a second. pick a middle ground powder charge and go shoot.

We are not on the same page on this. I bought 4000 bullets and it will last me a while. I shoot at a 1000 yard range. My experience with Sierra and Nosler seconds has been that the bullets are good, theyre just clearing inventory. If anything, Ive only seem discoloration in some. I confirmed this on inspection and weighing the projectiles. The ?seconds? are of better quality than the equivalent PPU firsts which I also have.

I use ballistic apps to compute and true my dope charts. I need a BC to input the rifle and the bullet into the app. Truing is more complicated if I dont have a good basis. Im not even sure what you mean by “effort”. The BC is three numbers. I have the apps make predictions and true all my loads.

If you disagree, thats fine. This is a hobby for me, and this is what I do, its worked and I enjoy the process. Im shooting 7.62x54r because its a challenge.

Im fairly confident I can turn these seconds into better ammo than anything commercially available from Eastern EU. Having a proper BC will let me test them, validate the performance expectations, plus attempt to match the comm blok scope to the ballistic app for a click relevant dope chart.

This is a Nosler second hitting a 5 inch target at 650 yards https://youtube.com/shorts/KkMI-CvTQcw?feature=share

[kcstott]

We are not on the same page on this. I bought 4000 bullets and it will last me a while. I shoot at a 1000 yard range. My experience with Sierra and Nosler seconds has been that the bullets are good, theyre just clearing inventory. If anything, Ive only seem discoloration in some. I confirmed this on inspection and weighing the projectiles. The ?seconds? are of better quality than the equivalent PPU firsts which I also have.

I use ballistic apps to compute and true my dope charts. I need a BC to input the rifle and the bullet into the app. Truing is more complicated if I dont have a good basis. Im not even sure what you mean by ?effort?. The BC is three numbers. I have the apps make predictions and true all my loads.

If you disagree, thats fine. This is a hobby for me, and this is what I do, its worked and I enjoy the process. Im shooting 7.62x54r because its a challenge.

Im fairly confident I can turn these seconds into better ammo than anything commercially available from Eastern EU. Having a proper BC will let me test them, validate the performance expectations, plus attempt to match the comm blok scope to the ballistic app for a click relevant dope chart.

This is a Nosler second hitting a 5 inch target at 650 yards https://youtube.com/shorts/KkMI-CvTQcw?feature=share

If you want to make yourself believe they are just "Discolored" you be my guest. If it was a discoloration issue they would just rewash them. There's more wrong with them than meets the eye. But most do not have the tools nor the skill set behind the gun to prove it. They do shoot well enough for most to take advantage of a good deal. But no one is shooting at nationals with a factory second projectile.
I've sorted enough "Seconds" to find the real issues. Again they are fine for the average cost conscious shooter or for a rifle not worth putting real effort into. I have rifles like that. I don't waste my effort on trying to build match ammo for a rack grade gun.
So how consistent do you think those lead tips are going to be flying down range? How much BC do you think you gain or loose when that tip gets deformed? I'll give you a clue. if you sharpen the tip then add a tiny .015" diameter flat on the tip. that's the best BC that bullet will ever be. Increase that flat to .030" and you just lost 5% BC increase it to .040" and you just lost 10% Now 5% and 10% don't sound like3 much but at 600 to 1000 yards it means being on a 6ft square target or over or under it.


Like I said pick a similar bullet and tweak it. BC's are not fixed numbers.
Nor are atmospheric conditions, if you have not figured out how to true a ballistic solver without using the velocity truing function. Well you have some things to figure out. If you have a solid 100 yard/meter zero and you can make an impact at 5-700 yards/meters and you have the muzzle velocity, and the atmospherics, you have all the data you need to come up with your own BC. it's not that hard and it's impossible for anyone here to give you anything other than a guess. But like you said it's just three numbers. Well which drag profile? G1? G5? G7?

Sierra says their non boat tail game king is G1 .411 and a SMK 174 gr is .499 G1 id start at .460 and tweak it from there.

Here's some calculators you can play with to try and get you close.

JBM Calculators

[Tripplet918]

Im not shooting at nationals. Im shooting these bullets out of a Zastava M91 24” gas gun. A Dragunov copy. My main objective is to surpass PPU 182 grain Matchline ammo at 2 dollars a pop. If I achieve 1.5 MOA out of these bullets from the M91, thats a win for me. I just took another set of measurements using the ogive of the projectile, again theyre good. I dont care about soft point deformation. They are soft points, it comes with the territory.

Thanks for the JBM link. That BC calculator just might get some use. I have Ballistic AE installed with access to a tremendous library of bullets, loads, ammo and Litz own data. I also use a Kestrel Elite, which has its own library. I just wanna ID the bullet so I can start with a good profile. If necessary, I’ll calculate the BC.

The #1 ammo for my rifle is 7N1 surplus. That stuff is between 30-60 years old. I have confidence that new powder and American made seconds are plenty good vs Russian surplus. If I get it right, I would like to reliably engage with the M91 from 0-800 yards consistently, within minute of man. I do not feel it necessary to feed this rifle even better projectiles.

[kcstott]

Im not shooting at nationals. Im shooting these bullets out of a Zastava M91 24? gas gun. A Dragunov copy. My main objective is to surpass PPU 182 grain Matchline ammo at 2 dollars a pop. If I achieve 1.5 MOA out of these bullets from the M91, thats a win for me. I just took another set of measurements using the ogive of the projectile, again theyre good. I dont care about soft point deformation. They are soft points, it comes with the territory.

Thanks for the JBM link. That BC calculator just might get some use. I have Ballistic AE installed with access to a tremendous library of bullets, loads, ammo and Litz own data. I also use a Kestrel Elite, which has its own library. I just wanna ID the bullet so I can start with a good profile. If necessary, I?ll calculate the BC.

The #1 ammo for my rifle is 7N1 surplus. That stuff is between 30-60 years old. I have confidence that new powder and American made seconds are plenty good vs Russian surplus. If I get it right, I would like to reliably engage with the M91 from 0-800 yards consistently, within minute of man. I do not feel it necessary to feed this rifle even better projectiles.

I highly suggest you plug a number into a ballistic solver. With your velocity and proper atmospherics and go shoot. Your 1.5 goal means you want 3 but are willing to work for better. So that means go shoot it and work the BC backwards. and don't velocity true it in the solver. Tweak the BC to get your drops corrected. Adjust it in 15 to 30 point increments. You'll be surprised how close you can get to true ballistic profile.
Problem is a ballistic solver is only as good as the data you supply the Kestral with AB solver is about the most fool proof unit going.
Stop over thinking this and go shoot.

[Tripplet918]

I highly suggest you plug a number into a ballistic solver. With your velocity and proper atmospherics and go shoot. Your 1.5 goal means you want 3 but are willing to work for better. So that means go shoot it and work the BC backwards. and don't velocity true it in the solver. Tweak the BC to get your drops corrected. Adjust it in 15 to 30 point increments. You'll be surprised how close you can get to true ballistic profile.
Problem is a ballistic solver is only as good as the data you supply the Kestral with AB solver is about the most fool proof unit going.
Stop over thinking this and go shoot.

Ive spent more time discussing this with you, than anything else.

I have loaded ammo for a bolt gun and a my 18? AR. Im off Friday and will be shooting drills. Ive got my hopes up that the M91 will be a decent shooter, and will be just as fun as the other two.

[kcstott]

Ive spent more time discussing this with you, than anything else.

I have loaded ammo for a bolt gun and a my 18? AR. Im off Friday and will be shooting drills. Ive got my hopes up that the M91 will be a decent shooter, and will be just as fun as the other two.

There you go. Now do your best to collect data. Shot over a chrono if you have one. Get your conditions documented. Then make every shot count. When you get home you can crunch the numbers. If you can take your camera an get a video like you posted. It?s not perfect but you can slow the video down and get a rough time of flight. Or find someone that will allow you to shoot on a silver mountain or a shot marker electronic target. That will provide a rough down range velocity. They can provide very accurate down range velocity but the target must be absolutely square to the firing point and perfectly plumb.
Sorry to be so damn blunt that?s just me. I don?t mince words.
Hope you get some good results and some useful data.

[Tripplet918]

There you go. Now do your best to collect data. Shot over a chrono if you have one. Get your conditions documented. Then make every shot count. When you get home you can crunch the numbers. If you can take your camera an get a video like you posted. It?s not perfect but you can slow the video down and get a rough time of flight. Or find someone that will allow you to shoot on a silver mountain or a shot marker electronic target. That will provide a rough down range velocity. They can provide very accurate down range velocity but the target must be absolutely square to the firing point and perfectly plumb.
Sorry to be so damn blunt that?s just me. I don?t mince words.
Hope you get some good results and some useful data.

Unfortunately. These danged multi lens phones wont take video off my spotting scope i havent been able to solve that problem yet

[kcstott]

Unfortunately. These danged multi lens phones wont take video off my spotting scope i havent been able to solve that problem yet

They make cheep video cameras that have a 90x zoom. but that's just more money you don't need to spend. you can back plot the BC based on drop. you just need a jood group at say 300 and 600 to be able to tweak the BC until the drops are as close as possible.