Swapping Lehigh bullets into loaded ammunition

[Dirtlaw]

I think Lehigh has guides. If not PM me and I will send the information that I have. That said .. I'm old so don't expect it tomorrow.

[nedro]

The sky is falling folk crack me up.
I have an AR in 6.8 SPC. I bought my action and Barrel from ARPerforance.
Then I found Remington 6.8 ammo and bought it. My rig wouldn't cycle.
Then I noticed hat the web site warns against sing the REM ammo. States that if you plan on using it, let them know and they will drill a larger gas port for you.

So I pulled all the bullets and took measurements.
Then I worked up the loads until I found the sweet spot. I used the same bullets and powder. I ended up with a bit more than 70% of the ammo I started with.

To this day, they were some of the most constant (and Accurate) loads I have produced for my 6.8. But I won't do it again. I have my recipes.

As the chart shows earlier in this thread. Take "everything" into account when you reload. And always work up the loads. Pretty simple.

[crazy]

Why wouldn't you just load your own with the data they provide?

Because I have ammo that I bought years ago for hunting that is not legal for hunting in California. I thought about swapping the bullets but wanted to ask.

[therealnickb]

Thanks for the thread. I had the exact same idea. Bought 500 rounds of fed 180gr 300 win mag a long time ago. Seems hard to believe there is no copper bullet available that can’t be swapped safely.

But… I have zero experience. So I’ll keep reading.

[JagerDog]

[crazy]

I already stated that I'm not handsome and not the smartest but now I need to know physics too. What about English or math? I am really getting tired of the snotty better than you attitude on calguns. I came here to ask and to learn. I had already decided after the first replies against it. What else do you want? Light myself on fire while jumping off a bridge?

[ar15barrels]

Thanks for the thread. I had the exact same idea. Bought 500 rounds of fed 180gr 300 win mag a long time ago. Seems hard to believe there is no copper bullet available that can’t be swapped safely.

But… I have zero experience. So I’ll keep reading.

You could likely swap for a bullet of the same length but that bullet would be a lot lighter than the lead bullet and that would mean that the powder charge intended for the lead bullet would not be optimum.
Also, the starting pressure is higher on a solid copper bullet than a lead-core bullet since the copper bullet does not obturate as easily.
That's why you see most copper bullets constructed with driving bands to reduce the bearing area and ease obturation.

Now just for fun, lets play in quickload and substitute a similar length lead-free bullet for a standard bullet in a 300 win mag load:

First the 1.288" long lead bullet:

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 180, Sierra SPBT 2160 G7 Litz
Useable Case Capaci: 82.639 grain H2O = 5.366 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

[B]-00.9  100    78.00   3157    3985   61567  12188     99.3    1.197  ! Near Maximum ![/B]
-00.8  100    78.10   3162    3995   61843  12197     99.3    1.194  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.6  100    78.20   3166    4006   62122  12207     99.3    1.192  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.5  100    78.30   3170    4016   62401  12216     99.3    1.190  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4  100    78.40   3174    4027   62681  12225     99.4    1.187  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.3  100    78.50   3178    4037   62962  12234     99.4    1.185 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Now the 1.283" long lead-free bullet:

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 150, Barnes 'TSX'BT 30347
Useable Case Capaci: 81.651 grain H2O = 5.302 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

[B]-00.9  101    78.00   3297    3620   56773  11676     96.6    1.155  ! Near Maximum ![/B]
-00.8  101    78.10   3301    3630   57020  11689     96.6    1.153  ! Near Maximum !
-00.6  101    78.20   3306    3640   57269  11702     96.7    1.150  ! Near Maximum !
-00.5  101    78.30   3310    3650   57519  11715     96.8    1.148  ! Near Maximum !
-00.4  101    78.40   3315    3660   57771  11728     96.8    1.146  ! Near Maximum !
-00.3  102    78.50   3320    3670   58023  11741     96.9    1.143  ! Near Maximum !

Now lets try a lead-free bullet of the same weight with the same powder charge and OAL as above:

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 180, Barnes 'X' BT 30840
Useable Case Capaci: 79.643 grain H2O = 5.171 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

[B]-00.9  103    78.00   3258    4242   71923  11907     99.8    1.127  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE![/B]
-00.8  104    78.10   3262    4253   72242  11914     99.8    1.125  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.6  104    78.20   3266    4264   72565  11920     99.8    1.122  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.5  104    78.30   3270    4274   72888  11927     99.8    1.120  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4  104    78.40   3274    4285   73213  11934     99.8    1.118  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.3  104    78.50   3279    4296   73540  11940     99.8    1.116  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

And one more thing to try is to find a copper bullet that might be longer than the lead bullet but still lighter so as to balance the change in weight against the change in case capacity and get to a nice pressure with the same load as the 180gr lead bullet.
It turns out that the 165gr barnes TSX is 1.295" long and is possibly a good substitute for the 1.288" long 180gr sierra BTSP.
This is just with one specific powder and all theoretical as it's just playing with a computer model so don't go and actually try that substitution without working up proper loads...

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 165, Barnes 'TSX'BT 30349
Useable Case Capaci: 81.429 grain H2O = 5.287 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-00.9  101    78.00   3253    3878   61576  11943     98.5    1.158  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8  101    78.10   3258    3888   61851  11954     98.5    1.155  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.6  101    78.20   3262    3898   62124  11965     98.5    1.153  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.5  102    78.30   3266    3909   62397  11975     98.6    1.151  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4  102    78.40   3271    3919   62674  11986     98.6    1.148  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.3  102    78.50   3275    3930   62950  11996     98.6    1.146  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[crazy]

You could likely swap for a bullet of the same length but that bullet would be a lot lighter than the lead bullet and that would mean that the powder charge intended for the lead bullet would not be optimum.
Also, the starting pressure is higher on a solid copper bullet than a lead-core bullet since the copper bullet does not obturate as easily.
That's why you see most copper bullets constructed with driving bands to reduce the bearing area and ease obturation.

Now just for fun, lets play in quickload and substitute a similar length lead-free bullet for a standard bullet in a 300 win mag load:

First the 1.288" long lead bullet:

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 180, Sierra SPBT 2160 G7 Litz
Useable Case Capaci: 82.639 grain H2O = 5.366 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

[B]-00.9  100    78.00   3157    3985   61567  12188     99.3    1.197  ! Near Maximum ![/B]
-00.8  100    78.10   3162    3995   61843  12197     99.3    1.194  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.6  100    78.20   3166    4006   62122  12207     99.3    1.192  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.5  100    78.30   3170    4016   62401  12216     99.3    1.190  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4  100    78.40   3174    4027   62681  12225     99.4    1.187  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.3  100    78.50   3178    4037   62962  12234     99.4    1.185 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Now the 1.283" long lead-free bullet:

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 150, Barnes 'TSX'BT 30347
Useable Case Capaci: 81.651 grain H2O = 5.302 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

[B]-00.9  101    78.00   3297    3620   56773  11676     96.6    1.155  ! Near Maximum ![/B]
-00.8  101    78.10   3301    3630   57020  11689     96.6    1.153  ! Near Maximum !
-00.6  101    78.20   3306    3640   57269  11702     96.7    1.150  ! Near Maximum !
-00.5  101    78.30   3310    3650   57519  11715     96.8    1.148  ! Near Maximum !
-00.4  101    78.40   3315    3660   57771  11728     96.8    1.146  ! Near Maximum !
-00.3  102    78.50   3320    3670   58023  11741     96.9    1.143  ! Near Maximum !

Now lets try a lead-free bullet of the same weight with the same powder charge and OAL as above:

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 180, Barnes 'X' BT 30840
Useable Case Capaci: 79.643 grain H2O = 5.171 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

[B]-00.9  103    78.00   3258    4242   71923  11907     99.8    1.127  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE![/B]
-00.8  104    78.10   3262    4253   72242  11914     99.8    1.125  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.6  104    78.20   3266    4264   72565  11920     99.8    1.122  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.5  104    78.30   3270    4274   72888  11927     99.8    1.120  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4  104    78.40   3274    4285   73213  11934     99.8    1.118  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.3  104    78.50   3279    4296   73540  11940     99.8    1.116  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

And one more thing to try is to find a copper bullet that might be longer than the lead bullet but still lighter so as to balance the change in weight against the change in case capacity and get to a nice pressure with the same load as the 180gr lead bullet.
It turns out that the 165gr barnes TSX is 1.295" long and is possibly a good substitute for the 1.288" long 180gr sierra BTSP.
This is just with one specific powder and all theoretical as it's just playing with a computer model so don't go and actually try that substitution without working up proper loads...

Cartridge          : .300 Win. Mag.(F)
Bullet             : .308, 165, Barnes 'TSX'BT 30349
Useable Case Capaci: 81.429 grain H2O = 5.287 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder             : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.127% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-00.9  101    78.00   3253    3878   61576  11943     98.5    1.158  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8  101    78.10   3258    3888   61851  11954     98.5    1.155  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.6  101    78.20   3262    3898   62124  11965     98.5    1.153  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.5  102    78.30   3266    3909   62397  11975     98.6    1.151  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.4  102    78.40   3271    3919   62674  11986     98.6    1.148  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.3  102    78.50   3275    3930   62950  11996     98.6    1.146  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Thank you for this insightful and educational reply.

[therealnickb]

Yeah, thanks Randall! Those tables help a lot. Definitely going to hold off on any near maximum experiments until I full understand what I’m doing.

[JagerDog]

I already stated that I'm not handsome and not the smartest but now I need to know physics too. What about English or math? I am really getting tired of the snotty better than you attitude on calguns. I came here to ask and to learn. I had already decided after the first replies against it. What else do you want? Light myself on fire while jumping off a bridge?

OK child.

It's not "snotty" to suggest you understand what you're playing with and have the knowledge based intuition to make wise choices. No one expects one to be a ballistician to reload ammo, but when working "off-grid" you need an understanding of the physics. Even without Randall's LoadData modeling, the results are as anticipated. Same propellant in a smaller space sends pressure to the moon quickly. Most everyone who replied, understands this. Are they Physics PhD's or ballisticians? Not likely.

1) You don't put significantly longer projectiles to the same COAL and expect good things to happen.

2) When "converting" from lead to copper ammo, go down in projectile mass for best results (performance and often accuracy).


I'll add copper tends to a different profile, so OAL that fits your chamber tends to change. And copper likes a bit of "jump", reducing case capacity even further.

[JackEllis]

OP, I'm going to step in and referee a bit.

None of us wants to see anyone hurt. I'm not nearly as experienced as most of the people who have posted but I'll tell a little story that's worth keeping in the back of your mind.

For hunting I chose .308 diameter 150 grain Hornady GMX bullets and proceeded to work up a load using the recommended procedures and Hornady's data, which happens to be identical for all of their 150 grain bullets. At abut halfway between recommended minimum and maximum powder charge weights for the powder I was using, I started seeing cratering in the primers and muzzle velocities that were comparable to max charge weight in the factory load data, whereupon I stopped testing the hotter loads. The lesson for me was, be very careful. Nothing bad happened and I want to keep it that way.

If some of the folks who respond to your posts seem a bit huffy, they probably look like me: what's left of their hair is gray, the have wrinkles, and their time on this earth has made them cynics and curmudgeons. Try to pick out the useful nuggets of information and just let the rest wash over you.

I've learned most of what I know about reloading by reading posts in in this forum and teasing out the pearls of wisdom. I'm not any better looking and some days I feel like an unusual number of marbles have escaped but at least my face is intact.

[roostersgt]

OP, I'm going to step in and referee a bit.

None of us wants to see anyone hurt. I'm not nearly as experienced as most of the people who have posted but I'll tell a little story that's worth keeping in the back of your mind.

For hunting I chose .308 diameter 150 grain Hornady GMX bullets and proceeded to work up a load using the recommended procedures and Hornady's data, which happens to be identical for all of their 150 grain bullets. At abut halfway between recommended minimum and maximum powder charge weights for the powder I was using, I started seeing cratering in the primers and muzzle velocities that were comparable to max charge weight in the factory load data, whereupon I stopped testing the hotter loads. The lesson for me was, be very careful. Nothing bad happened and I want to keep it that way.

If some of the folks who respond to your posts seem a bit huffy, they probably look like me: what's left of their hair is gray, the have wrinkles, and their time on this earth has made them cynics and curmudgeons. Try to pick out the useful nuggets of information and just let the rest wash over you.

I've learned most of what I know about reloading by reading posts in in this forum and teasing out the pearls of wisdom. I'm not any better looking and some days I feel like an unusual number of marbles have escaped but at least my face is intact.

I was noticing the same thing, but with Barnes TTSX bullets. The COAL is same as for all 308s of 150grns SP, 2.081 and the starting load with Varget is the same at 41-46 grs. I load all my 308s of that weight to 43.6 for accuracy and have loaded to 44 grs with no signs of pressure. While its probably not a good idea, for all the reasons already mentioned, it must be noted that standard lead bullets of the same weight use the same parameters as the copper bullets Ive loaded. Most hunters after WWII pulled the FMJ bullets out of the surplus ammo and replaced them with the same weight/type soft points with no problem either. With all this said, Id just pull the bullets, dump the powder, and use my own powder and copper bullets to be on the safe side. Not much savings for the risk taken.

[Tripplet918]

I dont know what your motivation is and if its justified.

Why not….

1) shoot the loaded ammo, collect the cases, then load the Lehigh projectiles? You get to shoot for the cost of the primer and powder. Once fired cases are awesome.

2) load the Lehigh projectiles into new cases. Youll end up with twice the ammo.

3) sell the loaded ammo and buy what you need.

Just sayin. Loading ammo is time and effort. What your planning to do seems to me like more work than necessary.

My worry is who knows what the powder is in the loaded ammo. Working up a load with unknown powder sounds like more work that what a pound of known and appropriate powder will cost.