Loading 20 practical

[pacrat]

The Lee full length sizer also could have the die opened up to accept neck bushings.

Sure, OP could. if he had the [lathe-tooling-skills] to do so. BUT WHY?

When he already has the 223 collet neck sizing die, that only needs this $4 stem-mandrel to turn it into a ".20 Practical", neck forming/sizing die.

https://www.titanreloading.com/product/lee-ns2988-decapping-mandrel-204-ruger/?search=lee%20mandrel

ET correct nomenclature from stem to mandrel.

[ar15barrels]

Sure, OP could. if he had the [lathe-tooling-skills] to do so. BUT WHY?

When he already has the 223 collet neck sizing die, that only needs this $4 stem to turn it into a ".20 Practical", neck forming/sizing die.

https://www.titanreloading.com/produ...=lee%20mandrel

Because then you could use a nice redding bushing to size the necks instead of a shagnasty lee collet.

I have a lee collet crimp die here somewhere.
It absolutely destroys brass so I quit using it after it messed up a couple cases.

[pacrat]

Because then you could use a nice redding bushing to size the necks instead of a shagnasty lee collet.

I have a lee collet crimp die here somewhere.
It absolutely destroys brass so I quit using it after it messed up a couple cases.

I've never used a Lee collet crimp die, or anybody else's for that matter. And personally have found some of Lee's products to be, as you said, shagnasty.

Yet on the other hand. I've found their collet neck sizing dies to be an excellent and well thought out and simple design. And their standard die sets to be on a par with other makers.

After I throw those sloppy POS O-ring lock nuts away.

IMHO, you hit the nail on the head, when you posted this.

If he has what's listed in the thread he linked, he has a lee 223 full length and collet die set.
What he might not have done was properly convert it to 20 caliber.

It's obvious OP is a novice as he admitted. Then showed, when he conflated bushings/mandrels when he called Lee. If he gets the 204 stem mandrel for his collet die. And follows instruction in his link. Or simpler still, the 2 steps I previously listed. He will be making 20 Practical ammo in no time.

changed "stem" to correct term "mandrel". Nomenclature matters.

[devster55]

It's obvious OP is a novice as he admitted. Then showed, when he conflated bushings/mandrels when he called Lee. If he gets the 204 stem for his collet die. And follows instruction in his link. Or simpler still, the 2 steps I previously listed. He will be making 20 Practical ammo in no time.[/QUOTE]

[ar15barrels]

When you say the mandrel free floats, are you meaning that it falls out of the die?
If so, you need a washer to keep the little stepped head from pulling through the cone piece that actuates the collet.
While you are there, stack some washers to make that cone sit a little lower so the collet will actuate more.
If you mean it floats side-side but does not fall out, that's ok as the collet will squeeze the case neck down against the mandrel and the mandrel will self center.
If the floating bothers you, you could make a shim by rolling a strip of aluminum foil around the mandrel only where it sits in the cone until you get a nicer fit.

[devster55]

Yea it’s side to side play. I’ll add some spacers to tighten it down more.

[devster55]

Thanks Pacrat and Randall. I filed down dimes as spacers till I got the proper neck tension. It worked out just fine with the 20 cal mandrel. I’ll let you know how it shoots.

[pacrat]

It's obvious OP is a novice as he admitted. Then showed, when he conflated bushings/mandrels when he called Lee. If he gets the 204 stem mandrel for his collet die. And follows instruction in his link. Or simpler still, the 2 steps I previously listed. He will be making 20 Practical ammo in no time.

^^^corrected stem to mandrel^^^

As Randall noted, side play is normal. And present even with proper mandrel to "COLLET DIE SLEEVE" match. https://www.titanreloading.com/produ...ing-die-parts/ Which is what Lee calls that part that Randall described as Cone Piece. And doesn't affect functionality because the collets applied pressure is LATERAL to the vertical direction of force, and Self Centers the mandrel in the collet.

Just to let you know, since this is your virgin experience with these type dies. It takes a butt load of ram pressure to convert the vertical ram travel into applied lateral pressure to squeezes case neck down using them.

CAUTION;;; ... Take care when raising the press ram to form your cases. Go slow and feel for the pin to enter the flash hole. Before applying force on the ram handle. The extra sideways movement using the 204 mandrel in the 223 collet sleeve. MAY be prone to the decap pin on the mandrel, missing the flash hole in the case. I measured the Mandrel to Sleeve clearance on a couple of Lee collet neck sizers. They were at about .0005". So you now have about .0205" clearance.
I say "about" because I was lazy. Reloading gear is upstairs in the house, with a nice set of Helios calipers. Only good for .001" precision. My .0005" mics and telescope gages, are out in the garage.

Kewl, go make some ammo. If you encounter slop problems with the 204 mandrel in 223 sleeve. Call Lee back and ask for a .204 Ruger Collet Sleeve.

But remember that words matter, and without proper nomenclature. Meanings are easily missed or misconstrued. And telephone C/S reps have a headset and a keyboard/computer screen. It's highly unlikely that they are actually knowledgeable reloaders. So when you asked for a bushing for a collet die. The C/S guy's screen gave a blank. In all honesty, I didn't know what Lee called that particular part of that type die. Until doing some research in this thread.

And I've been handloading for 54 yrs.

[ar15barrels]

Take care when raising the press ram to form your cases. Go slow and feel for the pin to enter the flash hole. Before applying force on the ram handle. The extra sideways movement using the 204 mandrel in the 223 collet sleeve. MAY be prone to the decap pin on the mandrel, missing the flash hole in the case.

That's why I mentioned shimming between the mandrel and the collet sleeve.
Replacing it with a proper 20 caliber sleeve would be best of course.

[devster55]

I ended up getting the Redding die and bushings. Now here is the next question. Is it worth it for me to buy quick loads to get load data? Looking online I’m not really finding much for load data for a Barnes 26gr varmint grenade.

[pacrat]

I ended up getting the Redding die and bushings. Now here is the next question. Is it worth it for me to buy quick loads to get load data? Looking online I’m not really finding much for load data for a Barnes 26gr varmint grenade.

Well, if you asked real nice. Just maybe a CG member will fire up their keyboard and run the numbers for you.

There's one in particular who is often quite helpful in this regard.

[ar15barrels]

Is it worth it for me to buy quick loads to get load data?
Looking online I’m not really finding much for load data for a Barnes 26gr varmint grenade.

Quickload has a steep learning curve.
Until you have used it through a load development cycle, it's not a simple thing to get actual usable load data from it as there are so many factors that effect the data.
Only after you can get quickload to actually match your chronograph with ALL factors accounted for would I trust it.
That said, it's a great comparator tool to see what the factors may do to velocity and pressure when you are tweeking a load.

What is your case capacity in grains of water for a fired case?
What barrel length?
What cartridge OAL?

Here are the top velocity powders at 55,000PSI using my default settings in Quickload:

Cartridge          : .20-223  20 Tactical
Bullet             : .204, 26, Barnes VG 30090
Useable Case Capaci: 27.095 grain H2O = 1.759 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.165 inch = 54.99 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi, or 379 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

55 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        87.2     20.3     1.32    3991    98.4    55000    8374   0.716  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 5744                       85.2     20.3     1.32    3991    98.4    55000    8374   0.716  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 200 *C                       100.0     24.4     1.58    3980    98.6    55000    8600   0.754  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4227                       93.1     21.3     1.38    3961    99.8    55000    7875   0.720  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4198                           102.0     22.8     1.48    3959    98.6    53844    8198   0.726  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 10                   99.4     26.5     1.72    3957    93.6    55000    8751   0.739  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N125 *C                  95.2     22.1     1.43    3956   100.0    55000    7779   0.732  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H335                        99.7     27.2     1.76    3952    93.7    55000    8713   0.737  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N120 *C                 100.8     23.0     1.49    3949   100.0    55000    7718   0.733  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-7                   96.9     23.4     1.52    3943    98.4    55000    8224   0.740  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Blackout             81.9     21.3     1.38    3941    98.5    55000    7973   0.718  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4227                            92.2     21.1     1.37    3937    99.4    55000    7797   0.719  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 1680                       89.1     23.2     1.50    3927    95.9    55000    8214   0.730  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-10x *C             102.0     24.0     1.56    3927    97.3    51666    8588   0.760  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.11 FS                   82.5     21.3     1.38    3916    99.9    55000    7574   0.727  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4198                       98.2     23.0     1.49    3898    94.5    55000    8008   0.726  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  88.8     18.8     1.22    3895   100.0    55000    6963   0.729  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World AR Plus             101.4     27.1     1.76    3890    91.4    55000    8390   0.751  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2230                      102.0     27.6     1.79    3861    89.1    54919    8268   0.750  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2460                      102.0     27.4     1.78    3851    90.9    52760    8434   0.770  ! Near Maximum !

That is based on 29gr water capacity.
I have seen this page that shows 30.3gr water capacity but rather than trust that, it would be better for you to provide a fired-case water capacity to work with and I can re-run you whatever powder you want.

[devster55]

Quickload has a steep learning curve.
Until you have used it through a load development cycle, it's not a simple thing to get actual usable load data from it as there are so many factors that effect the data.
Only after you can get quickload to actually match your chronograph with ALL factors accounted for would I trust it.
That said, it's a great comparator tool to see what the factors may do to velocity and pressure when you are tweeking a load.

What is your case capacity in grains of water for a fired case?
What barrel length?
What cartridge OAL?

Here are the top velocity powders at 55,000PSI using my default settings in Quickload:

Cartridge          : .20-223  20 Tactical
Bullet             : .204, 26, Barnes VG 30090
Useable Case Capaci: 27.095 grain H2O = 1.759 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.165 inch = 54.99 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55000 psi, or 379 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 102 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

55 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        87.2     20.3     1.32    3991    98.4    55000    8374   0.716  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 5744                       85.2     20.3     1.32    3991    98.4    55000    8374   0.716  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 200 *C                       100.0     24.4     1.58    3980    98.6    55000    8600   0.754  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4227                       93.1     21.3     1.38    3961    99.8    55000    7875   0.720  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4198                           102.0     22.8     1.48    3959    98.6    53844    8198   0.726  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 10                   99.4     26.5     1.72    3957    93.6    55000    8751   0.739  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N125 *C                  95.2     22.1     1.43    3956   100.0    55000    7779   0.732  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H335                        99.7     27.2     1.76    3952    93.7    55000    8713   0.737  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N120 *C                 100.8     23.0     1.49    3949   100.0    55000    7718   0.733  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-7                   96.9     23.4     1.52    3943    98.4    55000    8224   0.740  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Blackout             81.9     21.3     1.38    3941    98.5    55000    7973   0.718  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4227                            92.2     21.1     1.37    3937    99.4    55000    7797   0.719  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 1680                       89.1     23.2     1.50    3927    95.9    55000    8214   0.730  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-10x *C             102.0     24.0     1.56    3927    97.3    51666    8588   0.760  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.11 FS                   82.5     21.3     1.38    3916    99.9    55000    7574   0.727  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4198                       98.2     23.0     1.49    3898    94.5    55000    8008   0.726  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  88.8     18.8     1.22    3895   100.0    55000    6963   0.729  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World AR Plus             101.4     27.1     1.76    3890    91.4    55000    8390   0.751  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2230                      102.0     27.6     1.79    3861    89.1    54919    8268   0.750  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 2460                      102.0     27.4     1.78    3851    90.9    52760    8434   0.770  ! Near Maximum !

That is based on 29gr water capacity.
I have seen this page that shows 30.3gr water capacity but rather than trust that, it would be better for you to provide a fired-case water capacity to work with and I can re-run you whatever powder you want.

Thank you very much. I will load up a few cases and fire them then get the water capacity of them.