.223 not sizing right

[smoothy8500]

My case gauge is to SAAMI specs.

Everyone always says this. Yet stuff that "fits" the gauge, doesn't always seem to fit the chamber.....

[ar15barrels]

Everyone always says this. Yet stuff that "fits" the gauge, doesn't always seem to fit the chamber.....

And even though they SAY it's to SAAMI spec, quite often it's NOT on the end of the SAAMI specs that you want it to be.
It might be on the other end which is almost no help at all.

[BrassCase]

I've been reloading off a Dilion for years.
Never had a FL resizing issue with any caliber.

I suppose if you are like me and never read the instruction manual for the press you should hang around the guys that do.

Thanks Randal.

Instruction manual? Those are just suggestions

[pacrat]

And even though they SAY it's to SAAMI spec, quite often it's NOT on the end of the SAAMI specs that you want it to be.
It might be on the other end which is almost no help at all.

^^^YEP^^^

Not all holes are created equal.

Rifle chamber is a HOLE
Sizer Die is a HOLE

Those 2 HOLES are relevant.

Cartridge Gage is a HOLE. But until it is PROVEN to match the Chamber HOLE.

It is just another source of problems in the "TOLERANCE STACKING SOUP" that plagues all things reloading related.

[hambam105]

Randal...
I will put this on the, Do-List.
A local neighbor might be up for this challenge who has machines equipment looking for another learning opportunity.

[ar15barrels]

Randal...
I will put this on the, Do-List.
A local neighbor might be up for this challenge who has machines equipment looking for another learning opportunity.

Take the spring/ball out from under the shellplate and snug the shellplate down when you do the test.
Having the spring/ball in there and not having the shellplate snug to the shellplate platform will give you false readings.

[tawadc95]

You need a comparator to measure shoulder of a fired from your rifle case and a sized case.
Once you know each measurement you adjust the lock ring on your die with calipers and acquire your .004-.005 set back for AR.
Check that it chambers and the bolt fully rotated closed with all the springs out. After confirming the bolt closes the same feel without and with a properly sized case you put a couple pieces of wrapping tape on the head of the case and ithe bolt should close with some resistance if you are indeed .004-.005 setback.
Calipers are your best friend.
Make sure neck is proper length and external diameter before chambering.

[hambam105]

Exnay, a technical term, spring & ball bearing during measurement test. Understood.

I will put Dillion to the test.

Can't see myself ever going to a Hornaday or Lee Progressive.

The plan is to knock out primer with universal decapping die. and then FL re-size rifle cases.

[ar15barrels]

The plan is to knock out primer with universal decapping die. and then FL re-size rifle cases.

Go read my stickied high volume brass processing thread.

In a 5 station 650, Put a lube die in station 1 to decap and lube.
Put a trimmer or sizer in station 3.
Put a Lyman M die in station 5.

Both the Lube Die and Lyman M die get adjusted against the shellplate to support the shellplate from cantilevering while you are sizing on the other side of the shellplate.

The sizing die does not need a button since the M die does the expanding.
Cases expanded downwards are not going to get their shoulders pulled forward by the expander being drawn upwards through the neck.
The much longer expander of an M die is much more gentle than an expander ball which has to be really short to fit into the case while the case is being sized.
If you trim in station 3 with a dillon trimmer, the M die will break off any internal burr that is left from trimming.
The tumbling you do to get rid of the lube should break off any external burrs too.

[NoHeavyHitter]

You mention your brass is "mixed headstamp" and that you bought it from someone else. That sounds a lot like range-pick-up brass to me, which means you have no way to know how many times it was fired.

So, on that notion, are you checking the OAL of all these shells to ensure that they are below maximum trim length? Bottle-neck rifle brass grows in length every time it's fired. If it gets too long it's possible to have the kind problems you are having, so be sure to pay attention to OAL.

Just so you know, once my brass is on it's "last shot", I tend not to bother picking it up when I used to visit public ranges. I suspect that others do the same with theirs. Mixed headstamp brass has its issues and keeping the case lengths equal goes a long way towards producing consistent bullet crimps - which will yield more consistent accuracy.

Get used to trimming your brass now. You are going to have to do it if you keep reloading. When I started out, I didn't have a brass trimmer and never knew how much improvement having one made. Better be doing the paper-clip test for detecting a coming head separation too. When I leave brass on the ground, it's because It's done and I don't want a case head separation. That is why I check very carefully any brass that I pick up. Using pick-up brass is fine - you just need to scrutinize it a bit more than what you shoot that you know is new.

[LynnJr]

You are new to reloading so lets explain how a small base die needs more sizing than a standard die.

On a standard die the body of the case gets squeezed to a lesser degree.

On a small base die the body gets squeezed more.

As you adjust any die down or lower in the press or closer to the shellholder the case gets longer. Yes longer!!! This happens because your typical press cant compress the brass molecules but it can reshape the existing brass. The body or main part of the case gets pressed inwards and this shrinking of the case body moves the shoulder forward.
On a small base die the body gets pressed more so the shoulder moves farther forward.
Now you are thinking this guy must be nuts a small base die should size the brass more and it does thats why the shoulder moved forward more.

The shoulder moving forward means brass that would normally fit no longer fits so this guy is nuts.

As you keep screwing the die down or closer to the shellholder the die will now make contact with the shoulder.

It makes contact sooner on the small base die because the shoulder moved further on the small base die.

As you keep screwing the die down the shoulder starts getting pushed back or reformed and the extra brass gets moved into the neck as it has to go somewhere.

You keep twisting the die down in small increments until the gun cycles correctly.

Why did some or most of your brass work?
When you pick up range brass it is shot in many different chambers with small variations.
When you ran it through your small base die the dies dimensions never changed but all the variations in that eange brass moved your shoulder around in varying degrees.

You can take a piece of brass that hasnt been resized yet that fits into your gun and after lubing it you can incrementally start resizing it.

As you slowly screw the die down you will find a spot where the brass will no longer fit into the gun. As you keep screwing the die down it will once again fit into the gun.

In your example just keep screwing the die down until it all fits

[ar15barrels]

The shoulder moving forward means brass that would normally fit no longer fits so this guy is nuts.

As you keep screwing the die down or closer to the shellholder the die will now make contact with the shoulder.

It makes contact sooner on the small base die because the shoulder moved further on the small base die.

As you keep screwing the die down the shoulder starts getting pushed back or reformed and the extra brass gets moved into the neck as it has to go somewhere.

You keep twisting the die down in small increments until the gun cycles correctly.

Why did some or most of your brass work?
When you pick up range brass it is shot in many different chambers with small variations.
When you ran it through your small base die the dies dimensions never changed but all the variations in that eange brass moved your shoulder around in varying degrees.

You can take a piece of brass that hasnt been resized yet that fits into your gun and after lubing it you can incrementally start resizing it.

As you slowly screw the die down you will find a spot where the brass will no longer fit into the gun. As you keep screwing the die down it will once again fit into the gun.

In your example just keep screwing the die down until it all fits

Just to add to this excellent description of what's happening as the die is screwed further and further down,
let's quantify HOW MUCH we are screwing the die down.

I did the math and on 7/8" threads, the die will screw down 0.071" in a complete turn.
It just so happens that the circumference of the 7/8" threads is about 70mm.
What this means is that if you were to wrap a mm scale around the 7/8" threaded portion of the die, every time you adjusted 1mm of rotation, you will be adjusting the die down about 0.001".
There is a 1/70 mismatch over a full turn, but since you are making just small adjustments of 0.002" at a time, we can ignore that 1.4% error in measurement.

Here is an adhesive millimeter scale that you can wrap around the die threads:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324852152605

You will want to trim it to get rid of the numbers and all the extra blank space so it's just a 1/4" wide strip, then wrap that strip around your die's threads about 1/8" above the locknut.
Then put a pencil or sharpie mark on the locknut that you reference to the 1mm hash marks.
Now in use, you adjust 2 marks at a time to make a 0.002" die adjustment.

[sigstroker]

I guess nobody checks their sizing against the chamber in question? Is the case gauge at SAAMI minimum or maximum? Are you bumping the shoulder .002" or .005"? Inquiring minds want to know....

Most people that are loading .223 are loading for autoloaders. That ammo has to fit every autoloader I have and every one I'm GONNA have. I always use a gauge to check my resized brass. Besides, a Wilson gauge also shows you at a glance whether it needs trimming or not.

[Fastattack]

My money is on the gauge not being relieved to clear dinged up rims so cases with pull marks on the rim hang up and people that don't realize it's happening think the case is not fitting some other part of the gauge.

That was my first thought as well, but we haven't heard back from OP on where the hangups are occurring. Measurements and pictures would be helpful. I seriously doubt it's the case gauge. Begin with the most probable/simple explanation and work from there.

[dezert lobo]

Anybody else notice that case gauges can vary from different manufacturers meaning one being tighter than the other therefore making a case pass in one and fail on the other? As an example my Dillon will pass most 223’s I initially sized using my RCBS AR series die but my Lyman will fail some causing me to resize failed cases again only by screwing down the die a tad more.