Clays vs. Universal Clays powder?

[Squ1dward]

Anyone know the major difference between Hodgdon Clays and Hodgdon Universal Clays?

I went to grab an 8lb jug I have to reload my clays in the hopper, but realized it was Clays Universal. Bought it from a guy at a match and didn't look too closely at the time. didn't want to mix powders, so if someone could 'splain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

[tabascoz28]

I heard that some people use Clays for pistol. I use it for 7/8 loads and I recently got some International for that too. It looks like Universal is not made for light loads but can still be loaded into pistols. I don't mess around with shotguns, use the book loads.

[ar15barrels]

Anyone know the major difference between Hodgdon Clays and Hodgdon Universal Clays?

I went to grab an 8lb jug I have to reload my clays in the hopper, but realized it was Clays Universal. Bought it from a guy at a match and didn't look too closely at the time. didn't want to mix powders, so if someone could 'splain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

Universal is a completely different powder.
The Hodgdon "clays family" naming is a debacle in my opinion.
You have "clays" which is 1 of 3 powders in the family.
Then the other two have also been sold with the word "clays" on the package.
They have gotten away from that now buy dropping the "clays" from universal and international.

https://hodgdon.com/products/smokeless-powder/clays-family/

They should have called the family "Claysport" or "Shotgun Sport" or something different than the name of one of the discreet powders.

Here are the two powders compared in Quickload:

Cartridge          : 9 mm NATO (9 x 19 mm) EPVAT Piezo
Bullet             : .355, 124, FP Rainier 9mm
Useable Case Capaci: 10.396 grain H2O = 0.675 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.150 inch = 29.21 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon Clays

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.777% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-27.8   57     2.60    823     186   17594   2451    100.0    0.588
-25.0   59     2.70    842     195   18762   2534    100.0    0.570
-22.2   61     2.80    860     204   19965   2618    100.0    0.554
-19.4   63     2.90    878     212   21201   2701    100.0    0.539
-16.7   65     3.00    896     221   22471   2783    100.0    0.525
-13.9   68     3.10    913     229   23776   2866    100.0    0.511
-11.1   70     3.20    930     238   25114   2948    100.0    0.499
-08.3   72     3.30    947     247   26488   3030    100.0    0.487
-05.6   74     3.40    963     256   27896   3112    100.0    0.476
-02.8   76     3.50    980     264   29339   3194    100.0    0.465  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   79     3.60    996     273   30817   3275    100.0    0.455  ! Near Maximum !
+02.8   81     3.70   1012     282   32331   3356    100.0    0.446  ! Near Maximum !
+05.6   83     3.80   1028     291   33880   3437    100.0    0.437  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.3   85     3.90   1043     300   35466   3517    100.0    0.428  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+11.1   87     4.00   1059     309   37089   3597    100.0    0.420  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+13.9   89     4.10   1074     317   38749   3677    100.0    0.412  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     79     3.60    999     275   31708   3264    100.0    0.451  ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     79     3.60    993     271   29898   3287    100.0    0.460  ! Near Maximum !

Cartridge          : 9 mm NATO (9 x 19 mm) EPVAT Piezo
Bullet             : .355, 124, FP Rainier 9mm
Useable Case Capaci: 10.396 grain H2O = 0.675 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.150 inch = 29.21 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon Universal

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.886% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-18.9   70     4.30    978     263   19099   4481     99.3    0.558
-17.0   71     4.40    996     273   20037   4575     99.6    0.544
-15.1   73     4.50   1014     283   21005   4664     99.8    0.532
-13.2   75     4.60   1031     293   22002   4751     99.9    0.520
-11.3   76     4.70   1048     302   23029   4833    100.0    0.508
-09.4   78     4.80   1065     312   24086   4911    100.0    0.497
-07.5   80     4.90   1082     322   25174   4987    100.0    0.486
-05.7   81     5.00   1098     332   26295   5063    100.0    0.476
-03.8   83     5.10   1115     342   27447   5139    100.0    0.466
-01.9   84     5.20   1131     352   28633   5214    100.0    0.457  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   86     5.30   1147     362   29852   5289    100.0    0.448  ! Near Maximum !
+01.9   88     5.40   1163     372   31105   5364    100.0    0.439  ! Near Maximum !
+03.8   89     5.50   1178     382   32394   5438    100.0    0.431  ! Near Maximum !
+05.7   91     5.60   1194     392   33719   5513    100.0    0.423  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+07.5   93     5.70   1209     402   35080   5587    100.0    0.415  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+09.4   94     5.80   1224     412   36478   5660    100.0    0.407  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     86     5.30   1157     369   31268   5239    100.0    0.438  ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     86     5.30   1135     355   28428   5345    100.0    0.458  ! Near Maximum !

[Squ1dward]

Thanks for the info. I guess I will throw it up for sale.

[ar15barrels]

Thanks for the info. I guess I will throw it up for sale.

If you are using it for handgun loads, Universal is a better powder than clays.
If it's for light shotgun loads, Clays is better than Universal.

[ysr_racer]

I use Clays in my .38 short colt behind a 160gr bullet, lots of ICORE shooters do. I've never tried Universal.

[kevin c]

Clays, I understand, has been used for soft recoiling heavy bullet pistol loads. Loaded long, it was used in USPSA for over pressure light recoiling 40 S&W loads at major power factor. Other powders have replaced it in USPSA, but I think it is still used in 45 ACP.

Universal I’ve used in both 40 S&W and 9x19.

[JagerDog]

Clays resembles red dot
International resembles green dot
Universal resembles Unique

[rsrocket1]

Long winded reply with some trivia thrown in

Hodgdon did a big disservice naming the "Clays" family of powders. They were all originally made by ADI in Australia and used the same manufacturing process thereby calling all powders based on this with the name of Clays in it.

The fastest powder was the original "Clays" which is akin to AS30N by ADI. It was allegedly developed with some espionage to have the same characteristics as Alliant Red Dot. It is a very fast powder useful for 12 gauge target loads and low recoil handgun loads where you want high pressure for a clean burn but not too much total energy to drive the bullet too fast.

International Clays or now just "International" is also in between the ADI AP50N and AS50N powders and close to Alliant Green Dot. It is a little slower than Clays/Red Dot and will drive a bullet faster before you get up into the danger zone of pressures. There are no more modern handgun load recipes for International but that doesn't mean you can't use it so long as you're careful with it and keep to mid range loads.

Universal Clays or "Universal" is the slowest of the 3 powders. It is essentially AP70N from ADI and very close to Alliant Unique in terms of load data by charge weight. It is bulky like Unique and Hodgdon used to say that you can use Universal (by weight) in the same applications as Unique.

so:

Clays --> Red Dot
Universal Clays (now Universal) --> Unique

Now Hodgdon gets the Clays line of powders from a firm owned by General Dynamics in Canada. There were stories of significant differences in weight densities of the new powder which might affect old time shotgun loaders who never check the powder drops of their bushings but as a metallic loader we all <should> check powder drops by weight anyway so any density issues will be moot.

[eaglemike]

Clays is really clean burning, and pretty fast. Be careful (especially in .40) as pressures can go up pretty quick.

I developed some loads using International in short colt and .38 special and it also burned really clean.
Universal takes a lot more pressure to burn completely. It's like Unique that it's usable for a wide variety of applications.

[whutsup40]

I use universal for my 28, 20, and 16 gauge loads, good powder burns clean.

[Squ1dward]

Clays is really clean burning, and pretty fast. Be careful (especially in .40) as pressures can go up pretty quick.

I developed some loads using International in short colt and .38 special and it also burned really clean.
Universal takes a lot more pressure to burn completely. It's like Unique that it's usable for a wide variety of applications.

Ya, I use it for cowboy action in 45LC, 45CS and 12ga. I use a light load since all we are doing is banging steel