Energy vs. Momentum?

[Gun1]

I was looking at cartridge offerings and see that two of the best rounds for autoloaders are the 45 Super and hot 10mm. However, the 45 Super has the edge in momentum and Taylor KO with a 230gr bullet at 1100 fps for 617 pounds of energy, 36 momentum and 16 Taylor KO, but the 10mm has a clear advantage in energy with the 155gr bullet at 1500 fps with 774 pounds of energy, but drops the momentum to 33 and the Taylor KO to 13.
So which of these would be the harder hitting round?
I'm wondering because with the 9mm vs. 40 vs. 45 it's very clear that the 45 hits harder. There's several tests with bulletproof vests where only the 45 dents what's behind the vest, and I believe that the 40 has slightly more energy but less momentum, yet the 45 clearly hits harder than the 40 with 165gr 40 vs 230gr 45.

[JTROKS]

I went through this back in the mid 90s as I chased the hottest but safe loads with my 10mm pistols. I decided to go with a 44 magnum or 454 Casull if ever I’m in big mean bear country. If I do get the itch of getting another magnum level semi-auto pistol I will probably pick a 6” all steel 1911 in 45 Super. It will have a Bull barrel with fully supported chamber.

At the starting line the 45 Super beats the 10mm by .051”. At any bullet weight the 45 Super kicks in about 100 fps more. I can always shoot 45 ACP if I can’t find 45 Super. The 45 Super will win the bullet weight department, but I hear the sectional density crowd mumbling. Also with the advent of Lehigh Penetrator bullets, you can have penetration, velocity and hydrostatic effect.

[Henry Shooter]

Good info
I would like to see the comparison with the 45 Super and 10mm with 180 grain as far as energy downrange.
Velocity will decrease with the 10mm but curious about the energy.

Why shoot 155’s in a 10mm?

[32spoke]

I agree with this, and 450SMC can also be used as well-though difficult to find.

Check out this new cartridge

https://www.fkbrno.com/field-pistol.html

[middleofnowhere]

A buddy and I were discussing ballistics and how to get the most kinetic “energy” at the point of impact.

Momentum is the ability of your projectile to maintain velocity. Projectile shape and weight are factors to maintaining momentum, so bullet selection can make a huge difference in terminal ballistics when using similar powder charges.

[ar15robert]

A good alternative can be a 460 rowland as well.But overall a 10mm is easier to find ammo for.

I reload so making full power loads is easy too and played with my 10mm rounds

[L-2]

I could never grasp physics (bad student) by not quite understanding things, coupled with poor memory retention, but what is "harder hitting" means to me what has more "energy" at point-of-impact. For example, what will break apart a cinder-block or how hard will a bullet/projectile be hitting a piece of armor plate, whether it penetrates or not.

"Harder hitting" may not be even relevant if the projectile merely goes through the target/threat, as if just shooting a piece of paper; or if shooting an armored vehicle's armor thick enough where no handgun round will ever be able to penetrate such armor.

I think Post 5 explained momentum well, which may be considered as a factor related to a projectile's distance to target/terminal-ballistics and the aerodynamics of the bullet.

This is all nice and academic however. I should say this discussion may do best in the Ammo & Reloading forum rather than this "handguns" forum, btw. I'll go now.

[diveRN]

A good alternative can be a 460 rowland as well.But overall a 10mm is easier to find ammo for.

I reload so making full power loads is easy too and played with my 10mm rounds

This. I also have both and reload for the .460 as well. Properly adjusted, you can use certain .45ACP projectiles and dies to reload the Rowland cartridge. Hot .460 loads hit hard. Some of my 230gr jacketed loads chrono'd at 1440fps with decent accuracy at 30 yards. GREAT handgun round for pigs.

Underwood sells both the .460 and 10mm. Not cheap, but available.

[dozer wright]

I've been carrying 140 grain Underwood Penetrators in 10mm there's a YouTube Video of a Guy shooting the Round though two inches of Bulletproof glass and it looked like one could reload the spent slug. The 180 grain 10mm rd hardly put a dent.
I think there are two different schools of thought How many Smaller rounds a person could put on target and Big Bullet ballistics and punch.
In the end Would you rather get 5 , 6 or 15 Rds of 10mm on Target or one or two 44 mag , 500 mag or 460.
I own a 500 S&W mag , 44 mag and Glock 20 and 29. Most of the time I'm going to carry the 20 or 29.

[hermosabeach]

eNERGY

I could never grasp physics (bad student) by not quite understanding things, coupled with poor memory retention, but what is "harder hitting" means to me what has more "energy" at point-of-impact. For example, what will break apart a cinder-block or how hard will a bullet/projectile be hitting a piece of armor plate, whether it penetrates or not.

"Harder hitting" may not be even relevant if the projectile merely goes through the target/threat, as if just shooting a piece of paper; or if shooting an armored vehicle's armor thick enough where no handgun round will ever be able to penetrate such armor.

I think Post 5 explained momentum well, which may be considered as a factor related to a projectile's distance to target/terminal-ballistics and the aerodynamics of the bullet.

This is all nice and academic however. I should say this discussion may do best in the Ammo & Reloading forum rather than this "handguns" forum, btw. I'll go now.

Too vague of question.... Sorry OP


"energy" at point-of-impact- What do we mean by Energy?
Kinetic Energy is a simple equation - KE = 1/2M *(v*v)

So you can have a lighter bullet moving faster or a heavier bullet moving slower with the same Kinetic Energy at impact.


Now hunting in Africa- Big Animals and Big Shoulder Bones to penetrate- Some rely on Momentum as momentum gives penetration

Momentum is simply Mass Times Velocity....



Then there was Hatcher... Hatcher came up with a formula to try to decipher tissue damage... Hatcher too the tip of the bullet into account. Flat Bullets do more tissue than a pointy bullet... and you multiply that by the other factors including diameter... so 10 MM vs 11.43 MM for the 45







Last real question would be exit speed?

If the projectile exits the target- How much energy stayed in the target and how much is carried down range?


So if a Buffalo Bore 44 mag 265 grain mono Metal round enters a target at 1,372 fps -- S&W 4-inch barrel and exits at 900 FPS... How much energy was actually absorbed by Target?

So you would subtract the remaining KE of 900 fps Sq * (1/2 *265)




OP - It's a fun topic... but we all know a lower power porsche is faster around a lot of tracks than a much higher HP dodge charger...

The charger might have 700 RWHP... but is slower on a course with curves... than the porsche...



OP- So what are you shooting? Where are you shooting?



For Hogs... a hard cast lead projectile is amazing.....

For 148 pound Tweakers with Dead nerve endings... the hard cast would be horrible.... the round would enter and exit striking what is beyond the target.

[hermosabeach]

I really don't know much about hatcher's formula.... If it works... but here is a link- take a read

http://asgard.midco.net/links/hatcher-table.htm

SNIP
Dexter's Table For
Hatcher's Theory Of Relative Stopping Power

The Hatcher Formula is an attempt to mathematically evaluate the approximate effectiveness of pistol ammunition at incapacitating a person. Developed by Gen. Julian Hatcher in the 1930's, it uses the bullet momentum, frontal area, velocity, and a 'form factor.'
The formula is:
RSP = M * A * F
where RSP = Relative Stopping Power Index, M = Momentum of the bullet in foot pounds, A = Area of the bullet in square inches, F = Form factor derived from his observations with some additions for later bullet types. The table lists an RSP for each 'Form Factor', whether or not that form of bullet actually exists for a particular caliber or weight. The form factors presented below include:
0.70 Fully Jacketed Pointed
0.90 Fully Jacketed Round Nose
1.05 Fully Jacketed Flat Point
1.10 Fully Jacketed Flat Point (Large flat)
1.00 Lead Round Nose
1.05 Lead Flat Point
1.10 Lead Flat Point (Large Flat)
1.00 Jacketed Softpoint (unexpanded)
1.35 Jacketed Softpoint (expanded)
1.25 Lead Semi-wadcutter
1.10 Hollow Point (unexpanded)
1.35 Hollow Point (expanded)

[hermosabeach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN4thm4J6ks

10mm vs 45 ACP + P vs Ballistic Gel

[hermosabeach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieoEBKvRIGI

.45 AUTO +P vs. .45 SUPER vs. .460 ROWLAND 255gr HARDCAST CHRONOGRAPH

[Tarmy]

[hermosabeach]

I first learned of the 460 Rowland while at Wild West Guns in vegas....


The fact that you MUST have a compensator to prevent frame damage is a no go for me.... Shooting a bear... and losing my hearing - no thank you


its an awesome round for the Glock / XD platform.... Almost 44 Mag power... Concealable... High Capacity vs 6 shot revolver


Its the risk of shooting a dangerous animal without hearing pro... the brake kills the round for me



460 Rowland Underwood Ammo 230gr Bonded (Gold Dot) JHP Ballistics Gel Test (HD)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wu9S5gIt_E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stBEYydyE7c

Underwood Ammo 460 Rowland 170 Grain Controlled Fracturing Hollow Point Ballistic Gel Test