Lyman M die question....308 caliber

[Geofois]

Hey guys,
I have some coated lead bullets to load in my enfield but need to expand the neck. I'm told and read the Lyman is much better since it opens the entire neck vs just the case mouth. I see there are a couple versions of the same die. One seems to be for 30-30 and the other 30-06. Which one would work for 308 and 303? I would think maybe the 30-06 is made for long 30 cal so also the magnum 30 cals. They are sold out everywhere but I'll keep an eye out on fleabay.

[justMike]

.308W and 30-30 are almost the same length of case. The .308 is 2.015" and the 30-30 is 2.039" according to Lee 2nd edition. Metric for 30-30 is 7.62X51R
The dies for the longer cartridges has the expander higher up in the die and the dies for the shorter cartridges have the expander lower to the die bottom.
It is too much trouble for me to find mine and measure specifically though. Know a machinist who could turn a expander mandrel for you?

[Gasman]

Lyman M die # 7349002 is for 308 Win. in stock at Midway:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011246697?pid=129697

[Geofois]

Looks like it does 30-06, 30-40 Krag, 30 cal mangum rounds. It is a different one for 303 british. The guy that told me about it said he uses one that does 308 and 7.62x54R or at least he uses it for 54R. I see that the same one does 30-30 and 7.62x39 so that seems fine with .308 and .310. 308 must be the shortest the 7349002 will handle. 303 is a longer case so I wonder why the same won't be for 303. I wonder if I can order one body and different plugs. Mainly I need it for 303 which I sold out. I was just thinking the 30-30 one would handle all the 30 cal rounds similar in length but that was wrong.

[justMike]

Looks like you can back order one directly from Lyman. That could work, but not right away. The .303B one seems to be # 7349005.

[Geofois]

I saw that for $19.95, not too bad. I wonder how long back order is. I'll shoot them an email now.

[pacrat]

Hey guys,
I have some coated lead bullets to load in my enfield but need to expand the neck. I'm told and read the Lyman is much better since it opens the entire neck vs just the case mouth. I see there are a couple versions of the same die. One seems to be for 30-30 and the other 30-06. Which one would work for 308 and 303? I would think maybe the 30-06 is made for long 30 cal so also the magnum 30 cals. They are sold out everywhere but I'll keep an eye out on fleabay.

First bold above......... Here is the pimp blurb from Midway for M dies.

M-Die expands the case neck to just under bullet diameter for precise neck tension in first step. Second step flares case mouth to bullet diameter or slightly over.

So the M does the same thing as a regular expander stem + a 1/16" increase RIGHT at the mouth. Similar to the flare a pistol die does. Here is a link with pics of how they work. http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_B...Die_Plugs.html

Second bold above...........Have you slugged the bores on your Smelly's? Have you measured those coated slugs. They shoot a standard .312" bullet. Likely cast would be better at .313"


Numbers Time. Original 30-30 bullets were .307" then everyone switched to .308" like all other American 30 cals. Optimal interference fit, bullet to neck is .001-.002".

So with either an M or standard expander plug. Optimal interference fit for a .308 will be .306-.307".

For a .303 Smelly. It would be .310-.311". And for cast bullets .311-.312".

Using the same M expander or standard expander. Sized for .308 necks will create a .006" interference fit with a .312" cast. If cast/sized then coated, and ends up .313-.314". It becomes .007-.008".

That's a crap ton of squeezing. Creating a situation where the bullet itself will be acting as the expander, on the downward seating stroke. Which is FAR from likely to make nice straight cartridges.

I believe Lyman sells extra M die expander stems/plugs. For pretty cheap. Might be best to get one die for .308" and another stem/plug for .312".

If you happen to have a set of 8x57 mauser dies. You could run your standard Smelly dies to size/expand. Then run the cases into the 8x57 just enough to give the mouths a little .318" flare. Just a thought.

BTW...........I went upstairs and measure some 303 Smelly ammo I've got gathering dust on my load bench. 180 grain Win. and they are dead nuts .312".

[divingin]

So the M does the same thing as a regular expander stem + a 1/16" increase RIGHT at the mouth. Similar to the flare a pistol die does.

Sort of similar. Most pistol dies will overflare if set too deep (of course, this depends on the design of the expander plug in question.) M-dies (and analogs - NOE makes good ones in various sizes/configs) actually have a fairly long step for the "flare" portion, so setting them deeper creates a deeper, just-over-bullet-diameter pocket without making it funnel shaped.

[ar15barrels]

Hey guys,
I have some coated lead bullets to load in my enfield but need to expand the neck. I'm told and read the Lyman is much better since it opens the entire neck vs just the case mouth. I see there are a couple versions of the same die. One seems to be for 30-30 and the other 30-06. Which one would work for 308 and 303? I would think maybe the 30-06 is made for long 30 cal so also the magnum 30 cals. They are sold out everywhere but I'll keep an eye out on fleabay.

A lyman M die has 5 parts.
Die body is the biggest piece and has the 7/8 threads that thread into the press.
Body lock nut lets you set where the die body threads in and stops.
The mandrel is the piece that expands the case neck and attaches to the stem.
The stem is a threaded knob which lets you adjust how deep the mandrel will go into the case.
The stem lock nut holds the stem in adjustment with the body.

Picture here:

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_Bullet/Lyman_M-Dies/BrennanLymanMdies-9.jpg

The difference between 30-06 and 308 M dies is in the length of the die body, not the expander stem.
The shorter one can be used for short or long cases by not screwing it into the press as much.
The longer one might not be able to screw down far enough to handle shorter cases.
Once you have ONE complete M die, you can buy different size mandrels and make use of the same die body for all of them.

Norm Johnson has a great chart showing all the different calibers and which length body to use here:

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_Bullet/Lyman_M-Dies/Lyman_M-dies.html

[Geofois]

I was thinking 30-06 and 308 should be different but on Midway they have it as the exact same manufacturer number and upc so maybe they don't have it listed correctly since they are different lengths. They even have 300 Winchester magnum and 300 Weatherby magnums as the same one as 308.

I read the Norm Johnson article it was helpful. It does say the shorting one can handle the longer cases so I should be able to get the one that does 30-30 and use it for 308, 30-06, 7.62x39, and Krag, but not 303 brit unless I was using bullets at .310 which I do use. Thanks guys