What is a good target velocity for 30-06, 1903A3?

[Geofois]

Hey guys,
Got my new to me 1903a3 and made some different loads with my 844 and 846 powder, surplus powder. I got a good group with avg velocity of 2588 fps and 168g bullet hpbt. I think 150g bullets 2700 fps ish is good. I know every gun is different but roughly for a 24" 1903 am I in the ballpark or slow as molasses? That was 45 grains of 846, with 46 grains I got 2660 avg fps but the group didn't look any better and I think my best measured was with the 2588 avp fps. I'm just plinking out to 200 yards but mainly 100 yards with the peep sights.

My next jug is mp440 which is supposed to be TAC. I've read that isn't ideal for heavy bullets but maybe 155g would be fine. Anyone have experience with TAC and 168g bullets in a 30-06?

p.s. if anyone is using 846 or 844 I think they got it backwards as far as 846 being like BLC-2 and 844 being like H335 or maybe my jugs had the wrong labels...hah( I bet that was it)

[Cowboy T]

The 2700 fps area is what the original military loads produced. With that said, I would suggest you go for a different target instead of a target velocity. That would be the target of smallest group size. If the smallest group size in your particular rifle ends up with a velocity of 2,500 fps, then go with that. If it ends up 2,900 fps, then go with that...within the load books, of course.

846 is like BLC-2. 844 is like H335. However, remember that these are military powders, and each lot will have a somewhat different burning rate. That means a particular lot of 846 could be like H335, for example. That's why Lake City tests each powder lot and then loads the ammo accordingly, for that lot.

[Geofois]

Thank you. I do reload and target shoot with that exactly logic in mind but was just curious what someone found in their 1903.

I have read about the variation of these powders but mine are literally the exact opposite so their variation has made the 846 to be as fast or faster than what hodgdon published for H335 and the 844 is just a tad bit faster than BLC2 but close enough to just about use it's published data and I can observe with my chrono. Took me some head scratching and testing to figure when I loaded 223, and 308 with it. I did read another discussion that someone said they must have mislabeled them so it's possible that was the case. Now I just keep an eye for pressure signs and load to decent groupings and record the velocity.

With my enfield there was published data for lots of powder loads that seemed to be right around a similar velocity with some variation based on powder but when googling 30-06 velocity accuracy yada yada I don't see much but it's probably around 2600 for a 168g bullet. I'm using iron sights so what I have is probably fine. When I get my 1903a3 scoped rifle then I can really test to see out to 200 and know for sure.

[Cowboy T]

Well, remember that the 30-06 has been around for so long, and is so popular, that there's more load data for that cartridge then just about any other, at least in the United States. Furthermore, there are 114 years' worth of rifles in existence for the cartridge, some of those rifles in better shape than others. So, it's no surprise that there's so much variation, and with good reason. The cartridge is so ridiculously flexible. I see why our gran'pappies liked it so much.

In my Winchester 70, which is a 24" bbl Mauser action like the M1903's, I use Superformance. Yeah, Superformance! It's actually pretty darn good in this cartridge. With the 178gr Hornady BTHP, I'm seeing right around 2,850 fps. That load does 1/2 minute in this rifle. Since this powder was specifically designed not to increase peak pressure from the SAAMI maxes, but rather just extend it for a little bit longer (that's how they get the velocity increase), you may find it worth trying it in your M1903 as well.

It is definitely true that the military powders can vary. The canister powders that we buy as H335 and BL(C)-2 are mixes of different lots to keep a consistent burn rate for us handloaders. That's why they're so consistent. Indeed, "BL(C)-2" is just "BL(C)" mixed for retail sale. Military powders sent to Lake City, they don't blend the lots, hence the different burn rates. They might actually be labeled right! :-) And yes, it's possible that whoever sold you the powder might've labeled them backwards as well. Back when WC820 was available (used for the 30 M1 Carbine ammo), it could vary between Accurate #7 and 2400. Lots were known to vary by as much as 20%, though I typically saw about 15%. Still good stuff. Shame there's no more available now....

[hambam105]

I am surprised a bullet from a obsolete cartridge such as the old 30-06 even goes that fast.

[Geofois]

I was actually surprised they can be slower. I always figured based on case size they would be forced to be faster unless you have lots of empty space. I just recently learned how versatile they are. Not sure if they are obsolete judging by how widely it's used but I guess if we just go by age. I shoot 30-30 and 303 and some truly obsolete stuff so it seems like a spaceship in comparison =P

[Cowboy T]

I am surprised a bullet from a obsolete cartridge such as the old 30-06 even goes that fast.

Never be dumb enough to discount the "older" cartridges, young padawan. You may, as now, be surprised. :-)

[Cowboy T]

I was actually surprised they can be slower. I always figured based on case size they would be forced to be faster unless you have lots of empty space. I just recently learned how versatile they are. Not sure if they are obsolete judging by how widely it's used but I guess if we just go by age. I shoot 30-30 and 303 and some truly obsolete stuff so it seems like a spaceship in comparison =P

Indeed, the .30-06's continued popularity is in good part a result of that flexibility. I'm known to also shoot cast bullet loads at about .30-30 velocities and even a little slower. The '06, combined with, say, some H322, does this very well. Learned this from the Lee reloading manual. This idea also works for the .308 Win, BTW.

The, there's "The Load", which is a reduced load of 2400 for most .30-caliber military cartridges. As I recall, it's 16 grains of 2400 under a cast bullet of 150 grains. At 1700 fps or so, it won't win any races, but I remember it being a pretty good shooter for lighter target practice. S'fun! And economical, too! :-)

[TonyMang_89]

I am surprised a bullet from a obsolete cartridge such as the old 30-06 even goes that fast.

Care to elaborate ?

[Geofois]

I have some 2400 for my m1 carbine since I read you can load down better with that vs the H110. On a side note with all these scarcities of components. I have lots of 150g speer hot core 30-30 bullets. Do you think they'll be fine for plinking in 30-06? They probably won't be 1/2 moa but maybe 1.5" moa? at 100 yards

[hambam105]

TonyMag 89

Be glad to explain:

A few years back some yahoo tried to convince me that 308 and ought-six were obsolete calibers.
Some friends heard me trying to explain the obvious to him had a good laugh.

So every now & then I use the phrase to catch a few uninitiated here on calguns.

[Geofois]

Holy crud, I'm watching this youtube video on the history of the 1903. They are covering the receiver issue in WWI so after fixing it then the rifles were proofed for 70k psi well above the ammo. With the improved forging and double heat treatment the actions were exceeding 125k psi. Now I can make my ammo go 4000 fps =P. Assuming the 1903a3 by that time was still using that same over the top manufacturing.

[FLIGHT762]

Your powders are on the fast side for the 30/06. They will work for the 150 gr. bullets, but won't get you to top velocities with the heavier bullets.

I've used a bit of H-335 in the 30/06. Around 45-46 grains for a 150 bullet. You'll see that those powders you have will give you a bright muzzle flash. Shot a bunch out of my M-1 Garands.

[Geofois]

I loaded up some 150g last night and some 168g to compare group sizes. I'm sure you're right. If my 30-30 bullets work great I have plenty of those for plinking. I did get a nice group with my 168g but primers were flat so won't go faster but doesn't look like I need to. Actually hit ok for iron sights at 200 yards but I could barely see the target. Managed to stay on the 8" sticker on the edges.

Edit: used hodgdon ballistic calculator to compare 130g spitzer flat base with 168g hpbt. Surprisingly similar trajectory up to 400 yards. 223 and 308 are pretty much identical up to 300 yards so it makes sense. It probably doesn't take twist rate into account.

With a 130g spitzer flat base g1 coefficent 2950fps vs 168g hpbt g7 coefficient 2600fps both zeroed at 100yrds. 130=-4" drop 200 yards, 168=-4.5" drop 200 yards. 1" difference at 400 yards. 6" difference at 500 yards.