Pistol caliber rifle question.

[MEGSDAD]

Hi I'm new to pistol caliber rifles. Thinking of picking up a 45 Colt lever rifle. I know you get more velocity in the rifle. The question is does a pistol round develop more pressure also in a rifle?
Thanks

[Donny1]

There was some good info in a thread I started

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1637162

Also check out the Ballistics by the inch link there.

[Sandspider500]

Short answer, no.

[JagerDog]

Hi I'm new to pistol caliber rifles. Thinking of picking up a 45 Colt lever rifle. I know you get more velocity in the rifle. The question is does a pistol round develop more pressure also in a rifle?
Thanks

No. Just a longer time for the expanding gases to induce bullet acceleration.

[bigbossman]

Same pressure, higher velocity.

[hambam105]

Same pressure higher velocity yes. Don't forget resistance.

[pacrat]

Same pressure higher velocity yes. ///// Don't forget resistance.

Hash marks designate {point of diminishing return}. After which velocity starts decreasing, as barrel length increases.

[hambam105]

Good to know. Thanks.

[slamfire1]

This is not 45 LC data, but I think it is useful for comparison. I was able to push a 240 grain bullet about 300 fps more out of my Marlin 1894 with the same load as in my revolver.

As has been stated in other threads, peak pressure is produced just as the bullet leaves the case. There is a limit to the production of gas, for example a 22lr actually starts to slow down after 16 inches barrel. The gunpowder no longer expands and pushes on the bullet. You can read in the chapter one of AMCP 706-107 Ballistics Part 2 https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/830287.pdf that the design of propellants is very involved as there is very little time for the propellant to burn and produce energy. (worth looking at chapter two of AMCP 706-106 https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/830272.pdf for propellant kinetics). Anyway burn rate, shape, chemistry of the propellant is tailored but there are limits to how long it can burn at a "less than" pressure that won't blow up your firearm.


S&W M629-4 5" BarrelM1894 Marlin Ballard Barrel

[MongooseV8]

Well with a rifle action you might be able to increase your loads and as a result, also raise pressure. You can load low pressure for an original type colt revolver, but the same modern rifle level loads would not be safe to shoot in a colt.

[slamfire1]

Well with a rifle action you might be able to increase your loads and as a result, also raise pressure. You can load low pressure for an original type colt revolver, but the same modern rifle level loads would not be safe to shoot in a colt.

I think I have seen articles on loading 45 Colt in rifles. Unlike a 44 Magnum, the 45 L Colt was originally issued as a black powder cartridge and factory ammunition tends to be low pressure even though modern steels would allow a little increase in pressure in modern replicas of 19th century pistols. It is questionable whether more pressure and more velocity really means anything in terms of lethality, especially in a pistol.

For decades in print gunwriters have made unsubstantiated and woolly headed claims that the 45 L Colt case was weaker than the 44 Magnum case But these guys are shills, not technical experts and are ignorant about cases and case strength. Vintage balloon head cases, appropriate for black powder charges, are way too thin and weak and because they are positively dangerous, due to the risk of a blown case head, have not been made for fifty years, maybe more. But, given the modern solid head case construction, the "strength" of a 45 L Colt case is comparable to any other, and the real difference in pressure holding capability is not the case anyway. Cases are not strong, they must be supported, as cases are gaskets. Brass is, and will always be, weaker than steel. And brass is used because it is an effective gas seal when pressure are less than 50,000 psia and the case is supported.

This is an example of a low pressure case, undoubtedly safe in a low pressure application, even though a lot of case head is unsupported outside of the chamber, and yet, given a little too much pressure, the case looks like a belted magnum.



The 45 ACP is a low pressure case, is not well supported in a 1911, which is fine for if pressures are kept low, but, a little too much pressure and




Now, whatever weapon this 44 Magnum was fired, the weapon gave great case head support, as there had to be massive pressures to blow the extractor groove out



I find it incredible to see that those who "teach" us weapon design theory, in print, really don't understand that the case is simply a gasket and whether it blows or not is primarily due to case support, and the structure providing the case support. Cases are weak.

Whether a 45 L Colt, or 44 Magnum, or any other caliber is "strong" is primarily due to case support and the structural integrity of the action providing that case support. If the brass case is not supported well, such as the S&W M52 38 Special semi auto pistol, then the case will blow. The M52 was made only for 148 grain bullets with 2.7 grains Bullseye. So much of the case head was out of the chamber that slight increases of pressure above this load would blow the case head.

There are some pistols, Ruger Red Hawks and Super Red Hawks, and that are strong enough to allow pressures up to 44 Magnum pressures.These pressure levels would beat up, or blow the top strap on N frame S&W's and Colt SAA replicas. But, I cannot believe that modern rifles in 45 LColt (not 1873 Winchester replicas) should be able to handle 40,000 psia 45 L Colt loads without any lug set back issues, even though, I don't know what the steels or the heat treatment. I will say, if the 454 Casull can be chambered in Rossi M1892 actions, than those late 19th century patterns, if made of modern good steels (say 4140 steel) and heat treated properly, and chambered in 45 LColt, should be able to take pressures close to a 44 Magnum.

[pennstater]

That's an interesting post. Probably very correct. Not being a ballistician. I go with that. I would never even think of loading a .45 Colt to .44 mag velocities or pressures. You want that type of performance. get the .44 mag. Save your .45 Colt for it's original intended purpose.

[golfish]

OP, I posted this over on the other sub forum, just in case you missed it.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[MongooseV8]

Ive fired full tilt 45LC loads through a Marlin 1894 and a couple TC Encores. And while I cant measure actual pressures, I can say the 45LC can be loaded to brutal levels.

[pacrat]

In relation to the pic labelled.

LOOK MA! NO EXTRACTOR GROOVE

Gotta call BS on that one. I've seen many brand new unfired cases both New Unprimed. And NEW UNFIRED FACTORY rounds that had no EXTRACTOR GROOVES.

That's a simple manufacturing defect. It's too perfectly formed to be anything else. NOT an over pressure consequence. And a rimmed pistol case functions just fine without a groove. Unless per chance it was fired in a Deagle.