Shotshell specialists?

[FLIGHT762]

Just a FYI with 00 Buck loads. Your gun may not cycle with the "Low Recoil"00 Buck loads.

For our Benelli M-1 super 90's at work I found they would not cycle with the Federal LE132 00 low recoil rounds (1145 fps). I went to the Federal LE 127 00 load @ 1300 fps, which worked 100%.

[tabascoz28]

I got an inertia gun for the simplicity and because I hate cleaning guns. I guess the gun was made for full loads, not simple target practice. Maybe that means these guns will last longer too?

[JagerDog]

With an inertia semiauto shotgun, inertia (momentum) is the important parameter. Dram equivalent refers to velocity. 2.75 Dram = 1145 fps, 3 Dram = 1200 fps. If your gun manual says it needs 1 oz at 3 Dram so that means an equivalent inertial of 1200 oz-fps (strange units, but it actually is a correct depiction of momentum). So with a 1-1/8 oz load, you actually need only 1066 fps. Both your red outlined loads should work but for your gun, the 1200 oz-fps loads are the minimum and your gun should cycle with them provided you are actually checking the weight of the 1 oz loads to be sure and chronographing these loads to meet the minimum fps.

You say the Lee bushings drop light. Big problem here. Both a lower shot weight and lighter charge will result in lower momentum. First, correct the drop weight of your shot to make sure you're shooting 1 oz or 1-1/8 oz or whatever. It sounds like you have a chronograph so that's good. Weigh out 5-10 charges of powder and chronograph them. 1-2 shots is not nearly enough to get a good average.

Before all that, your shells are all wrong for the published recipe. Estate shells are similar to Federal hulls. They are classified as straight walled hulls and you Remington hulls are tapered hulls. Tapered hulls have less volume in them than straight walled hulls and generate higher pressures. Your Winchester type wads are made for tapered hulls and in a straight walled hull, can leak powder into the wad leg area. This usually isn't a problem if a few flakes migrate, but with a lot of bouncing around, it can add up. If you look at load data, you'll see that recipes for Federal hulls call for a grain or two higher charges than for Remington or Winchester hulls. In my experience, the hull volume in increasing order are:

Winchester/Universal/SuperX (don't bother with Universal or SuperX hulls, they are really thin and have a tough time holding a crimp)

Remington (all varieties)

Federal/Estate

Don't bother with euro hulls

Alliant Clay Dot is supposed to be a ripoff of Hodgdon Clays (which was originally meant to be a competitor to Alliant Red Dot before they came out with "IMR Red"). Alliant originally said in their literature to use Hodgdon Clays load data. "Pixel peeping" loaders who send their loads out to be pressure tested by laboratories said that Clay Dot isn't exactly the same as Clays, but for us common loaders, it's close enough. What that all means is you can go over to Hodgdon's load center web page and look though a much wider database than Alliant's. Your two red circled loads should produce similar results with the Winchester primer.

As for chronographing the loads, the important thing for you would be consistency. If the load works, then tweak other recipes to get you the same or greater velocities so long as you stay below the max published load. It's OK to move up and down between the minimum and maximum loads (interpolate) but not go outside these limits (extrapolate). Shotshell loading is not like metallic loading. There are no real signs of overpressure until the chamber of your gun gets over stressed or splits and there is very little margin between 9,000 psi which is a lower limit of clean and consistent burning of powder and 11,500 psi which is the max SAAMI limit for shotguns.

Summary:
You have an inertial cycling autoloader
Inertia = Momentum = shot weight x muzzle velocity
Pick and make sure your loads have the right momentum to cycle the gun

Good luck and have fun

Dram equivalent is NOT velocity. It's mass @ velocity. A 3 dram 1 oz load will be faster than a 3 dram 1-1/8 oz load.

OP: Bumping up powder charge to obtain velocity with no ability to measure pressure is ill-advised. I've worked "off recipe" quite a lot (wads, primers, etc.) but bumping up powder wasn't one of 'em and I approached these mods with multiple data sets. When working with non-tox with a variety of subs I've sent shells in for pressure testing.

As for clay dot not equaling clays or red dot not equaling red, there's likely as much lot to lot variation within a respective powder.

Truth be told, modern shotguns are a lot stronger than they need to be. Takes a lot to hurt you or the gun. That said, don't throw caution to the wind. There's plenty of available components and recipes to achieve your end goal.

[Red9]

I've got a mk3 as well. She's been through a few rounds. So far the only ammo it doesn't like is Winchester white box.
My 3/4 ounce loads work fairly well, but I'm running them at 1250 to 1300 fps. Number 8 shot.
Gun club hulls.
Cb1012075 wads.
Red dot powder


Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

[Thefeeder]

><

On a side note---Give Wolf a call and ask if they make a light spring for your M3000. They work great for target loads

https://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20&%20Shotguns/cID2

[rsrocket1]

Dram equivalent is NOT velocity. It's mass @ velocity. A 3 dram 1 oz load will be faster than a 3 dram 1-1/8 oz load.

Yeah, you're right

https://saami.org/faqs/#dram-equivalent-ammunition

velocity to a given weight of shot. For example, three drams of black powder with 1⅛-oz shot in 12 gauge, a 3 dram equivalent load produces a muzzle velocity of about 1,200 ft./sec.."

The OP said:
"My shotgun says it needs at least 1oz and 3 drams to work correctly."

I was ***uming he already had fixed his shot drop to measure a proper shot weight so now he needs to adjust the powder charge to get the proper velocity to cycle his gun since his post was asking what it took to cycle his inertia based autoloader.

[JagerDog]

Yeah, you're right

https://saami.org/faqs/#dram-equivalent-ammunition

"NOTE: The term ‘dram equivalent’ is obsolete and no longer used to express the velocity of shot fired from shotgun shells.

A dram was a measure formerly used for black powder and was normally used as a volume measure (although strictly speaking, it is a weight measure equivalent to 1/16 oz. or 1/256 lb.). A given dram charge of black powder imparts a certain velocity to a given weight of shot. For example, three drams of black powder with 1⅛-oz shot in 12 gauge, a 3 dram equivalent load produces a muzzle velocity of about 1,200 ft./sec.."

The OP said:
"My shotgun says it needs at least 1oz and 3 drams to work correctly."

I was ***uming he already had fixed his shot drop to measure a proper shot weight so now he needs to adjust the powder charge to get the proper velocity to cycle his gun since his post was asking what it took to cycle his inertia based autoloader.

While a bit archaic, it (dram equivalent) is still a useful measurement for this very discussion. In effect, it's kinetic energy (without the math) which is useful in a host of discussions.

Actually, he asked about upping the charge of his existing powder, beyond published, in order to achieve enough velocity to meet the needs of his shotgun. I would advise against this approach when there's other powders/components more suitable. An alternative is locating other reliable data using his existing powder, but that's in short supply.

[JagerDog]

On a side note---Give Wolf a call and ask if they make a light spring for your M3000. They work great for target loads

https://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20&%20Shotguns/cID2

An option if supported. The caveat being that "full house" loads will take a greater toll on the firearm given enough loads over enough time. Anyone's guess what that might be.

If the ammo is close, but not quite there, I think I'd address it from the ammo side as opposed to regular swapping of springs between loads.

[tabascoz28]

On a side note---Give Wolf a call and ask if they make a light spring for your M3000. They work great for target loads

https://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20&%20Shotguns/cID2

That is another option but I'd hate the change up a gun. Last time I did that I had to be really careful, light primer strikes on a revolver. If I lightened up the spring most likely inside the stock it might cause the gun internals to slam harder on buck and slug rounds?

[tabascoz28]

https://moaprecisionllc.com/product/new-reduced-rate-recoil-spring-for-light-loads/

Found some upgrades for the M3000. It says 3 inch mags will start to wear on the gun.

[FLIGHT762]

If I lightened up the spring most likely inside the stock it might cause the gun internals to slam harder on buck and slug rounds?

The action return spring is not inside the stock. It's the big spring on the outside of the magazine tube. Easy to get to.

You could buy the lighter spring if you want, but you will need to change it back to the original when you shoot the heavier loads or you will beat the crap out of the gun.

I would keep it stock and find a target load that cycles reliably.

[Thefeeder]

><

Your only choice, if your are dead fast on no light spring is to look up some load recopies that will get 1 1/8 of shot moving at 1300fps and buy those components and powder

[NoHeavyHitter]

I'm impressed with the depth of shotshell loading knowledge here - many outstanding points have been raised..

So we know that we need a payload moving at (least) as fast as the Remington load (that works) to be successful. Assuming that you have met that goal (payload weight and speed) and your loads still won't cycle, then I would suggest that you start looking at the wad you're using in comparison to the wad that is used in the Remington shell.

My thought here is that there is a possibility that the compression zone in the wad you are using is "softer" or performs differently than than the Remington wad's compression zone. Maybe using a wad with a stiffer compression zone would help? While I can't say anything for certain - it (the wad) is one more element to give consideration in pursuit of a functional load.

[tabascoz28]

The joys of reloading and developing loads...

Yes thanks for everyone's expert knowledge on this one! Shotgunworld has been helpful too.

[tabascoz28]

Reloads all chronoed at like 100 below what the manual stated but were consistent and cycled.

I did 3 tests, one was factory, one was max alliant clay dot published data, and one was .5 grains from max of Hodgdons clays.

The reloads this time worked all flawlessly so now I know I have some rooms to play with with the crappy powder drop.

I still have the low power spring coming and a larger bolt release button. Another batch and I'll call it a success. Then I'll move on to developing workable buck and slugs. Incidentally there was a whole bunch of once fired high wall buck and slug hulls laying around the range. Score!

I didn't want this thread to end without success or failure. Seen too many unresolved threads on the net.