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  • #16
    LynnJr
    Calguns Addict
    • Jan 2013
    • 7958

    Since you have a chronograph you can load one round at each powder charge going up in 1% increments.
    If your baseline starting load is 23 grains you would go up in 0.2 grain increments. If your starting load is 52 grains your incremental increase would be 0.5 grains

    Now go to the reloading bench and load up one round using your incremental charge weight from book minimum to book maximum and maybe two to three rounds above book maximum.

    You set up your chronograph and have your notebook and a pen handy and shoot your rounds evenly spaced for time without ever looking at your target. You can measure the base of the case to make sure you are not pushing the charge to hot. 0.001 casehead expansion is your limit.

    Now you plot on a piece on paper your velocities in a vertical pattern going from low to high but you put the change in velocity next to the powder charge.

    What you should see is a hourglass looking change in your velocities something like this.

    2850 FPS
    2874 FPS +24
    2890 FPS +16
    2905 FPS +15
    2918 FPS +13
    2940 FPS +22
    2965 FPS +25
    2983 FPS +18
    3000 FPS +17
    3012 FPS +12
    3035 FPS +23
    3078 FPS +43
    3148 FPS +70

    This would show you two nodes one at 2918 FPS and another at 3012 FPS plus pressure problems at 3078 and above.

    An incremental powder increase would normally produce an incremental velocity increase with two exceptions.
    Exception one is when your near a node the increase is less.
    Exception two is when your near high pressure the increase is nonlinear.

    If you never see a velocity change below 35 FPS it's a good bet your primer isn't the best choice for your combination and you need to try something else.

    Let the target and the chronograph pick your load despite what you might read on the internet.
    With the 6BR and 6 Dasher cartridges there are powder primer combinations that are amazingly accurate but they are range specific.
    The best combination at a sea level range in California might be Varget and a CCI BR4 primer while in Montana at 6000 feet that same gun might prefer H4895 and a CCI 450 Magnum primer.
    Both camps will post pictures and beat there chests telling you about all the fake wood trophies each combination has won them but you need to remember the conditions and the location may make a difference.

    In my opinion accuracy trump's everything even in a hunting rifle but others will post that you go for maximum velocity and then adjust your seating depth and take whatever accuracy that produces.
    Who is right is up to your own needs as plenty of deer are killed each year with factory ammo and less than stellar guns.
    Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
    Southwest Regional Director
    Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
    www.unlimitedrange.org
    Not a commercial business.
    URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!

    Comment

    • #17
      Tommy Gun
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2011
      • 806

      Just listen to Lynn. He knows his stuff and has great insight when I started. Velocity isn't everything. If it's a hunting round you need to decide how far is far enough for you ethically and reliably can shoot to kill the animal. I'd bet it's 500 yds or less, maybe 300. Most lower end charges will have enough power, penetration, and lethality at that range. Then grain weight comes into play.

      Comment

      • #18
        choprzrul
        Calguns Addict
        • Oct 2009
        • 6549

        Originally posted by LynnJr
        This would show you two nodes one at 2918 FPS and another at 3012 FPS plus pressure problems at 3078 and above.
        May I assume "nodes" is indicating accuracy nodes?

        Originally posted by LynnJr
        The best combination at a sea level range in California might be Varget and a CCI BR4 primer while in Montana at 6000 feet that same gun might prefer H4895 and a CCI 450 Magnum primer.
        What is a guy to do that lives at sea level (i do ), but plans to hunt at 6500' elevation? No way I can justify driving 13 hours to our Nevada property to do load development....

        Originally posted by LynnJr
        In my opinion accuracy trump's everything even in a hunting rifle.....
        I concur. Bell killed over 1,000 elephants with a 7x57 using very precise shot placement. Putting that bullet where it belongs 'trump's everything'.

        .

        Comment

        • #19
          scotty99
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2009
          • 1184

          Originally posted by choprzrul
          May I assume "nodes" is indicating accuracy nodes?







          What is a guy to do that lives at sea level (i do ), but plans to hunt at 6500' elevation? No way I can justify driving 13 hours to our Nevada property to do load development....







          I concur. Bell killed over 1,000 elephants with a 7x57 using very precise shot placement. Putting that bullet where it belongs 'trump's everything'.



          .

          Comment

          • #20
            Whiterabbit
            Calguns Addict
            • Oct 2010
            • 7592

            Originally posted by choprzrul
            Thank you sir for the thoughtful and intelligent response. It sounds like a logical protocol to follow.

            In a nutshell....

            1. pick my bullet
            2. pick several powders
            3. work thru load development searching for least vertical stringing
            4. work thru seating depth to find accuracy node
            5. smile throughout at the smell of burn gunpowder?
            There you go. Pick one powder.

            If you can't get "close" with SD with your powder, switch powder. Don;t even go to OAL.

            If you can't get good groups even after OAL, switch bullet. Skip testing SD if the bullet weight is similar or same, just verify and move on to OAL.

            Lastly, after charge and OAL, switch primers to see if you get a benefit. If you aren't already better than where you want to be. Then you can start playing with boutique stuff for effects leverage. Or not, and just go shoot.

            Comment

            • #21
              rm1911
              Veteran Member
              • Jan 2013
              • 4073

              Load Development

              Originally posted by mjmagee67
              Load development sucks. I've gotten to the point where I pick an upper middle load. Load 10, shoot them over my chrono if the velocity is fine and they group fine......screw that's what I use. 10 out 10 times upper middle loads give me velocities under max with no pressure signs. 9 out 10 time they group .5 to .75 inch with 5 to 10 shot groups at 100 yards. I'm lazy...
              NRA Life Member since 1990

              They're not liberals, they're leftists. Please don't use the former for the latter. Liberals are Locke, Jefferson, Burke, Hayek. Leftists are progressives, Prussian state-socialists, fascists. Liberals stand against the state and unequivocally support liberty. Leftists support state tyranny.

              Comment

              • #22
                choprzrul
                Calguns Addict
                • Oct 2009
                • 6549

                I agree with what you are saying.

                However......My main objective to this post was to garner input so I could develop a set protocol for myself to follow when I want to do load development.

                Always trying to improve my process :-)

                .

                Comment

                • #23
                  Whiterabbit
                  Calguns Addict
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 7592

                  If you want to improve your process, I have 3 pieces of advice to always keep in mind when you're following your protocol.

                  1. Be data driven
                  2. When possible, be statistics driven
                  3. Don't sheeple along when the data contradicts what experts say. See #1. And no need to tell anyone when your data contradicts what experts say, maybe it applied to them and not to you.

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    choprzrul
                    Calguns Addict
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 6549

                    Originally posted by Whiterabbit
                    If you want to improve your process, I have 3 pieces of advice to always keep in mind when you're following your protocol.

                    1. Be data driven
                    2. When possible, be statistics driven
                    3. Don't sheeple along when the data contradicts what experts say. See #1. And no need to tell anyone when your data contradicts what experts say, maybe it applied to them and not to you.
                    Words of wisdom!

                    .

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      AGGRO
                      Veteran Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 2793

                      I have my powder assigned to calibers based on bullet and burn rate. I only hunt so I pick a bullet and then will pick what looks like best match for powder I already have. I think I'm at 4 rifle powders that cover everything. From there I start low and work up till I start to see pressure signs then back off a bit. It's usually at or near max load sometimes hotter than published.

                      Then I have some other guns I load to mid range like .30-30 or any curio and relic. I'll still hunt with them just not super hot loads.

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Dirtlaw
                        CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
                        CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                        • Apr 2018
                        • 3480

                        Great stuff --

                        Thank you contributors to this thread!!!!

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          JackEllis
                          Veteran Member
                          • Nov 2015
                          • 2731

                          I'm in the midst of developing a load for bullets that were pulled (62 grain Federal PowerPoints) for which there isn't any load data I can find. A little research suggests they're similar to the Speer 62 grain bullets so that's what I started with. Top load is 25.5 grains of W748 and I can shoot that with no pressure signs.

                          Lyman lists a different 62 grain bullet (SS109 FMJ) that goes up to 26.5 grains of W748. I'm probably not going to explore that territory because I don't need the speed for what are essentially practice and gopher rounds.

                          I did a workup with 150 grain Hornady GMX bullets for a .30-06 using essentially the same procedure I used for the 62 grainers and data published by Hornady. Started seeing pressure signs half way between min and max, and higher muzzle velocities than shown in the book. For the distances I'm comfortable shooting a critter, 3,000 FPS is enough so I'm going with what the book says are mild loads rather than take a chance on problems in the field. At this point in life I need all my fingers and both eyes in order to fly.

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            choprzrul
                            Calguns Addict
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 6549

                            Barnes 55gr. TTSX bullets. Load data gathered from Barnes' website and checked in Quick Load.

                            Rounds were loaded using Reloader 10x and OAL was set at 2.300" to allow for my magazine max length. Using the Sinclair OAL tool, I determined OAL to rifling was 2.357", so I have a 0.057" jump to the rifling. Barnes recommends 50-70 thousands, so I should be about right?

                            Shot 2/1/2019. Overcast skies & 61 degrees. Very light breeze. I was careful to center the barrel right over the chrono eyes.

                            223 55TTSX snip.JPG

                            I have no idea why velocity changes would have went negative. In the past I have set this chrono in series with another chrono to check variations. The 2 chronos were within 4fps of each other on every shot in a 10 shot group.

                            To me, it looks like I have nodes centered around 20.2 grains and 21.9 grains.

                            Perhaps another node right at 21.0 grains?? Was the 20.7gr shot an anomaly or perhaps my chrono went stupid?

                            Next up is to load 10 rounds at each of the above noted nodes and shoot some test groups.

                            .

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              Divernhunter
                              Calguns Addict
                              • May 2010
                              • 8753

                              Barnes bullets want/NEED bullet jump. This also helps with pressure problems. I have found that Barnes bullets get more accurate the faster you push them. They also have better terminal performance the faster you push them. Barnes does not follow "normal wisdom" when it comes to reloading.

                              I load them in a number of different calibers and cartridges within the calibers.

                              With Barnes I pick my TTSX bullet. Then I looks at BARNES data and pick the top 3-4 powders that are under 103% fill at max. Then load max and shoot them over my chrono for accuracy. The fastest one just seems to be the most accurate. Talking with Barnes at the SCI convention 4 years running they say the same thing. Their data is conservative and max loads are not near industry max. That has been shown to be true for me.

                              If I load for any cartridges you have I would be happy to share my data and accuracy results.

                              My 2 Cents
                              A 30cal will reach out and touch them. A 50cal will kick their butt.
                              NRA Life Member, NRA certified RSO & Basic Pistol Instructor, Hunter, shooter, reloader
                              SCI, Manteca Sportsmen Club, Coalinga Rifle Club, Escalon Sportsmans Club, Waterford Sportsman Club & NAHA Member, Madison Society member

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                LynnJr
                                Calguns Addict
                                • Jan 2013
                                • 7958

                                I would load up 5 rounds at 22.7 and see how they shoot as well.
                                Your numbers look good except for a couple and unless you timed each interval between shots that is to be expected. You have error in the chronograph as well as heat build up in the barrel.
                                If you step back and look at the bigger picture your right at 90 FPS per grain of powder.
                                Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
                                Southwest Regional Director
                                Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
                                www.unlimitedrange.org
                                Not a commercial business.
                                URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!

                                Comment

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